What is the latest state of play on Care Home planning etc?

Spivved1987

I made my will a good few years ago, and it puts the house (split 50:50) into a Trust on the first death etc etc. However a Saga communication I have just received says that Local Authorities may very well (why can't any of these commentaries state a position outright? It's always may or could be, never is) treat a property being in Trust as deliberate deprivation of assets. And today, in a discussion in The Guardian on millennials inheriting property, a person posted the following:

Anecdotally, I think too that many parents simply unquestionably accepted what has turned out to be bad legal advice many years ago with regards to the ownership structure of the family home and the drafting of their wills.

but unfortunately did not go into any more detail.

Has case law developed much in the last several years since we drafted our wills? I am beginning to think maybe I should look at my provision afresh. Having a house in trust looks like a hell of a faff, and if it doesn't actually help, I don't want my heirs and executors faced with a load of legal grief.

Can anybody add to the sum of general knowledge on this area?

Keep_pedalling

Putting your house in trust during your lifetime would likely to fall under DDOA, leaving your share of your home in trust on your death never has and still isn’t. 

Your main concern regarding care however should be where you might end up if you are totally dependant on a cash strapped LA to fund residential care.

Whether it is worth you doing this depends very much on the value of your home and your age. If you live in expensive part of the country it is probable not worth doing it as it is unlikely that a surviving spouse would require more than 1/2 the value of the house to fund care for however long they need it. These sort of trusts however have a second, and perhaps more important, function in protecting your share of your home in the event that your spouse remarries.

Brie

DDOA can also be influenced by the age of the people that live in the house.  If they are 30 year olds who could go out and get their own places perhaps.  If they are 60 yos that have been previously caring for you unlikely.

elsien

I’m not sure it’s quite as clearcut as the above post is saying, hence the guidance being maybe and possibly, because it is very much based on the individual circumstances as and when the local authority need to look into the funding.
One of the relevant points is whether you knew or could reasonably foresee that you would need care at the point that the property was put into trust. The other is whether there was a deliberate intention to avoid paying care fees.

https://www.ageuk.org.uk/information-advice/care/paying-for-care/paying-for-a-care-home/deprivation-of-assets/

Many people don’t need care anyway, and if it comes to it, it will be down to the relevant decision-maker at the time.

in your specific case as the Trust kicks in on the death of one person, what are you wanting it to achieve? 

justwhat

financial care home planning - i personally don't want any of my hard earned cash being used for it. i have been careful with money and have a large amount of savings. 

Some peeps will say on here 6k+ care home fees  compared to council care home fee gives a different quality of care . well i don't care even if that's true. Hopefully ill be fruit loop by then lol 
Trusts don't work. 
]Really you want too be in debt or give your cash away before care homes are an issue.

 If you have any access to assets councils are taking for care home fees.

AskAsk

i just read up on putting your home into a trust, which will not be considered for financial assessment when you go into care.  it seems to be about "intention", that if it can be established that you did this to avoid the property being considered for care home fees then it can be considered intentional deprivation of assets as trusts aren't meant to be a way to deceive the authorities, although it can be used to protect your home from this purpose, but in reality, a trust is meant to do a lot more than for this specific purpose, so if you have used it simply for this purpose, then the local authorities will be able to claim against it.

i have also found that if you google how care homes are funded by the council, some councils will only fund homes that they choose and if you choose ones that are more expensive, you are on your own.  they do not allow top up, which means if you have money, you will not want to live in one that they choose as that is more than likely be pretty poor.  they probably do this on purpose to flush out people who can afford to pay for the care homes themselves, which isn't a bad stragety.

MEM62

Always an interesting position. 

justwhat said:

financial care home planning - i personally don't want any of my hard earned cash being used for it. i have been careful with money and have a large amount of savings. 

So you have accumulated wealth but you do not want to use that to make your twilight years comfortable?  Do you view spending on your personal comfort and well being as a waste of money?  Have you lived the rest of life as a pauper instead of using your money to be comfortable and enjoying it or are you just planning on doing that in old age?   

justwhat said:

Really you want too be in debt or give your cash away before care homes are an issue.

Why would you rather give money away than use it for your own benefit when you really need it to?  This makes no sense.  

justwhat said:

If you have any access to assets councils are taking for care home fees.

No, they are not taking anything.  You are using your assets to pay for your care.  This is not covered by the NHS.  It is only Council funded for those that are not fortunate enough to be able to cover their own costs.  If you extend the logic of manipulating your wealth so that you can have the the state pay for everything why did you work?  Why didn't you remain poor so that you could live on benefits and 'they' didn't take your money for rent, mortgage payments, food and bills over the years.       

elsien

AskAsk said:

i just read up on putting your home into a trust, which will not be considered for financial assessment when you go into care.  it seems to be about "intention", that if it can be established that you did this to avoid the property being considered for care home fees then it can be considered intentional deprivation of assets as trusts aren't meant to be a way to deceive the authorities, although it can be used to protect your home from this purpose, but in reality, a trust is meant to do a lot more than for this specific purpose, so if you have used it simply for this purpose, then the local authorities will be able to claim against it.

i have also found that if you google how care homes are funded by the council, some councils will only fund homes that they choose and if you choose ones that are more expensive, you are on your own.  they do not allow top up, which means if you have money, you will not want to live in one that they choose as that is more than likely be pretty poor.  they probably do this on purpose to flush out people who can afford to pay for the care homes themselves, which isn't a bad stragety.

It’s not about council not allowing your top up. It’s about what the law says, which is that once your assets get down to a certain amount, you cannot continue to fund yourself, so any top up needs to be third-party or argued as being in your best interests/detrimental for you to move.

There is a general lack of clarity amongst the general population about care home funding and councils getting bashed for something that is not their decision to make because they are simply following the law. 

Plus a general feeling of “I’ve paid my taxes” when we are in the middle of a health and social care crisis that has to be funded somehow and there isn’t a magic money tree to pay for everyone’s care just so they can pass their house onto their kids. 

I remain firmly of the view that money gives you choices. Part of my job involves going into care homes to support people who have dementia and believe me, even if you are “fruit loop”  by then (as someone said earlier),  money can still pay for things that make a huge difference to your quality of life at that moment in time, for example, funding, extra support for activities, or to get out and about. 

Brie

justwhat said:

financial care home planning - i personally don't want any of my hard earned cash being used for it. i have been careful with money and have a large amount of savings. 

Some peeps will say on here 6k+ care home fees  compared to council care home fee gives a different quality of care . well i don't care even if that's true. Hopefully ill be fruit loop by then lol 
Trusts don't work. 
]Really you want too be in debt or give your cash away before care homes are an issue.

 If you have any access to assets councils are taking for care home fees.

AskAsk said:

i just read up on putting your home into a trust, which will not be considered for financial assessment when you go into care.  it seems to be about "intention", that if it can be established that you did this to avoid the property being considered for care home fees then it can be considered intentional deprivation of assets as trusts aren't meant to be a way to deceive the authorities, although it can be used to protect your home from this purpose, but in reality, a trust is meant to do a lot more than for this specific purpose, so if you have used it simply for this purpose, then the local authorities will be able to claim against it.

i have also found that if you google how care homes are funded by the council, some councils will only fund homes that they choose and if you choose ones that are more expensive, you are on your own.  they do not allow top up, which means if you have money, you will not want to live in one that they choose as that is more than likely be pretty poor.  they probably do this on purpose to flush out people who can afford to pay for the care homes themselves, which isn't a bad stragety.

Justwhat - I don't completely understand what you wrote but if you need to be in a care home and you have assets then you will be paying for it.  It's not negotiable.  Only when you get below the threshold (currently about £23500) will the council start funding anything.  This is different than if you need care in your own home in which case your home won't be taken into account but it's likely you will be required to pay for some of your care.  And if you give your cash away then that's definitely deprivation of funds and the council will go after who you gave it to to pay for your care.

AskAsk - I think that if no one can decide where you should go (including yourself) then a council will put you wherever they have available.  And you'll have to pay.  If you have someone who can decide (they have POA or you yourself are deemed competent) that you want to go somewhere more posh then you'll be funding the whole shot anyways if you have the funds.  And when the funds run out the council will pick a place where there is room and that's when they'll begin to pay.

justwhat

MEM62 said:

Always an interesting position. 

justwhat said:

financial care home planning - i personally don't want any of my hard earned cash being used for it. i have been careful with money and have a large amount of savings. 

So you have accumulated wealth but you do not want to use that to make your twilight years comfortable?  Do you view spending on your personal comfort and well being as a waste of money?  Have you lived the rest of life as a pauper instead of using your money to be comfortable and enjoying it or are you just planning on doing that in old age?   

justwhat said:

Really you want too be in debt or give your cash away before care homes are an issue.

Why would you rather give money away than use it for your own benefit when you really need it to?  This makes no sense.  

justwhat said:

If you have any access to assets councils are taking for care home fees.

No, they are not taking anything.  You are using your assets to pay for your care.  This is not covered by the NHS.  It is only Council funded for those that are not fortunate enough to be able to cover their own costs.  If you extend the logic of manipulating your wealth so that you can have the the state pay for everything why did you work?  Why didn't you remain poor so that you could live on benefits and 'they' didn't take your money for rent, mortgage payments, food and bills over the years.       

The state can look after me. I will spend and use wealth we have accumulate in our old age before we end up in a care home.. However i have no intention of using it for care home fees.

A council care home will do me fine funded by the council the exact same way that its funded for people that do not save. (or that have no assets). 

tooldle

The snag with your plan @justwhat is knowing when you’ll need a care home? Some folks are really unlucky and their position changes in an instant, no time to see the need on the horizon. Equally, other spend far longer than they should in their own home,  with some crisis acting as the trigger for their move. Having funds means not having to wait for said crisis. One of our neighbours is housebound with carers visiting 4 times per day. Timings of visits are random meaning some days breakfast is really early and on other days it’s mid morning. The carers change all the time so little consistency. The lady has no other family hence the carers are the only visitors. Sometimes the ambulance comes as the carers find her on the floor, and in the 3 yrs we’ve been living here, she gets sent back home for more of the same every time. It can’t be much of a life for her. Lonely I would think and frightening if you’re laying on the floor waiting for the next set of carers to find you.