Royal Mail refusing compensation

soolin

Money_Grabber13579 said:

Slight tangent but I wonder if policy has changed somewhere within Royal Mail and claims are now just denied much more routinely? They damaged one of my parcels recently and have refused to pay out because it wasn’t packaged adequately - despite it being packaged in exactly the same way that the manufacturer packaged it. I don’ have much prior experience of claiming from Royal Mail but any time in the past, they have paid out.

I did a claim for loss about 10 days ago- all online , got a cheque for the full amount in the post about 5 days later which has been my same experience for the past few years. 

sghughes42

soolin said:

I did a claim for loss about 10 days ago- all online , got a cheque for the full amount in the post about 5 days later which has been my same experience for the past few years. 

I wonder if it's hit and miss. A couple of years back I had a claim for an item they'd misdelivered refused. I had the necessary proof, and their delivery scan showed it being delivered in the wrong location, but it was refused because delivery had taken place. They didn't care it wasn't to where I'd asked, it had been delivered and that was all that mattered.

(Sorry, I'm rather jaded about RM as I've never had a claim paid - part of the reason why I rarely bother to get proof these days because it doesn't seem to make much difference)

sghughes42

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Was the parcel booked via OBA? 

No, labels printed directly from eBay. I only sell in small volumes so I don't qualify for a business account. It's pretty much a hobby business.

I think a letter before action is the only real choice here, other than to just forget it. I've hit a dead end where they won't even respond when I ask whether I should be entitled to at least a postage refund, never mind any more deep and meaningful questions like how it could have a tracking scan if I hadn't posted it.

Okell

sghughes42 said:

MobileSaver said:

The correct use of words is important; everyone was wasting their time with the original replies in this thread as the OP has now admitted that Royal Mail actually asked for proof of posting and not proof of postage as they originally said.

To be fair, in our discussions various Royal Mail reps have used both terms interchangeably - if they can't get it right I'm not sure how I'm supposed to know which they need.

Proof of Posting is the most recent one they used - scanning back through the thread of conversation with them both terms have been used pretty much equally.

So I'm not actually clear now which they do need!

Sorry if I've missed this, but why don't you just ask them what they mean?  And if they come back to you and say either "Proof of postage" or "Proof of posting" ask them what they mean.  Do they mean evidence that you paid the appropriate postage fee, or do they mean evidence that it entered the postal system?  Or do they mean both?

sghughes42 said:

born_again said:

Surely the value of the item will be declared on custom form given it's going overseas?

I make the item, therefore they need a breakdown of the cost of the components. They will only pay what it cost me to obtain the parts needed to make it, nothing further.

Surely if you sold an item for £200, but the cost of the parts you used to make it cost only £50, then RM must accept that its value is £200, not £50?  Doesn't it work like that?

FWIW I think that RM do just reject most claims out of hand on the basis that you won't follow it up.  The same way local authorities usually reject parking appeals out of hand on the basis that most people won't take it to a tribunal.

If you're getting nowhere but it's worth pursuing (either as a matter of principle for you or because of the amount of the loss you've sustained) I think you should consider what I suggested in an earlier post.  Send a Letter Before Claim and if they don't cough up, sue them.  (See my post from a couple of days ago).

In theory you could claim costs as a litigant in person at - I think - £19 per hour, but costs aren't usually awarded in small claims so I wouldn't rely on being able to claim that.  (I'm sure others will know better than me).

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

sghughes42 said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Was the parcel booked via OBA? 

No, labels printed directly from eBay. I only sell in small volumes so I don't qualify for a business account. It's pretty much a hobby business.

I think a letter before action is the only real choice here, other than to just forget it.

Apologies I think you already said that but I wasn't paying attention properly  

I would try a formal letter of complaint to either head office or their complaints department.

Then perhaps try a Letter Before Action if no joy, as above I'm not sure of your legal position as a business, there is the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 but it doesn't come up on the forum so I don't know if that's relevant.

Okell said:

Surely if you sold an item for £200, but the cost of the parts you used to make it cost only £50, then RM must accept that its value is £200, not £50?  Doesn't it work like that?

 If you are an individual then Royal Mail pay the market value, for selling your unwanted items on eBay they usually pay the sold price. 

For a business I assume the argument is if you buy a widget for £5 and sell it for £15, when it goes missing you buy another for £5, send that to the customer as a replacement and thus your loss is £5 + the original postage. 

Of course the buyer may have the right to treat the contract at an end under the CRA and marketplaces have their own protection schemes requiring buyers to be refunded within certain times should they request such but generally I think the Royal Mail policy is covering losses.

An exception to this someone like the OP who is making something as they lose the time putting the thing together, granted any retailer has spent time fulfilling an order but in most cases it's too little time to be of consequence.

OP may be bolting 2 parts together in seconds, they may be spending hours sewing, not sure how that aspect is considered legally but as far as Royal Mail go it seems they think it's tough luck.  

sghughes42

Okell said:

Sorry if I've missed this, but why don't you just ask them what they mean?  And if they come back to you and say either "Proof of postage" or "Proof of posting" ask them what they mean.  Do they mean evidence that you paid the appropriate postage fee, or do they mean evidence that it entered the postal system?  Or do they mean both?

Believe me I've tried. Usually they ignore the question and only repeat the list of items of proof they consider acceptable. I suspect until you get deeper in to 'the system' they are only able to repeat things by rote rather than actually answering questions.

As another aside, I'm struggling to even get deeper. A couple of times they've sent me a document detailing the stages of the complaints process but whenever I ask how to actually access the later stages I get ignored.

Surely if you sold an item for £200, but the cost of the parts you used to make it cost only £50, then RM must accept that its value is £200, not £50?  Doesn't it work like that?

They consider compensation is to put you back in the position you were before the loss. So if it would only cost you £50 to buy parts to make another then they consider that is putting you back in that position.

There seem to be a couple of flaws in their logic, the first you've already identified in that your time is not accounted for. Another one is that they want proof of what you spent rather than what it would cost to buy replacement parts. In this case I bought components in bulk and as a result got a discount. It would cost a lot more to just buy parts to build one and indeed some components are only available to buy in multiples. Prices are always going up as well and there is more time spent collating all the information to show these costs that you also don't get compensated for.

It does all seem to be aimed at putting you off claiming or taking claims further and minimising what they pay out. Which is part of the reason I'm in this situation in the first place as I've had no luck with claims in the past to have found it not worth bothering jumping through their hoops.