Royal Mail refusing compensation

sghughes42

Sorry for the delay in replying to this, I was away for a few days.

To clarify a few points, postage for the item was purchased via eBay, so I can prove I paid for the postage. The item was scanned twice at Langley so unlikely to be a false scan. It was sent International Signed however so there is no tracking as such - I've learned the lesson there for the future to use International Tracked instead.

I'm struggling to understand how the missing step of having proof I submitted the item in to the postal system makes a difference. I can show I paid for postage and that Royal Mail have had the item in their possession.

Some people raise the issue of size and weight - that doesn't get checked at a doorstep collection and if it was incorrect surely that would be recognised somewhere in the tracking rather than the item just going AWOL? I'd imagine anything being sent international that didn't have the correct postage would be returned to sender in the UK.

The argument about choosing random tracking numbers until you hit on one that is overdue is surely trumped by having proof of buying the label in the first place.

I should say also that RM have rejected *any* compensation - they won't even refund the postage cost never mind cover the cost of the item that has been lost. The arguments about proving size / weight may have some merit in relation to compensation for the item, but surely in terms of the postage paid all they need is the record of what I paid and the fact they've had it in their system?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Thanks for coming back OP

Did you give proof of the purchase via eBay with the claim?

When they denied the claim did they do this by letter?

If so was there an email address to contact if you were unhappy with the response?

Going back a good few years now but there used to be such an email address in the letter.

Okell

Can you clarify what RM are actually asking for?

Is it proof of postage (ie proof that you paid the correct amount of postage) or is it proof of posting (ie that it was sent and entered the mail system)?

If you have a receipt for payment then I'd say you have proof of postage.  If you have evidence that the package entered the tracking system (ie you can show tracking for it) then I'd say that you also have evidence - on the balance of probability - that it was posted.

If you correctly declared the value of the parcels and if that value is high enough, you might want to consider issuing a Letter Before Action with a view to suing them.  If it got to court it would then be up to the court (not RM) to decide whether the evidence you had amounted to proof of posting.


(I think it's generally believed that RM never lose these sort of cases, but I thought I'd read of some cases within the last year or so where people had successfully sued them...?)

sghughes42

The wording they use is Proof of Posting. I've tried arguing that proof of postage combined with a tracking scan is pretty good evidence of posting but they seem to be just reading from a script and won't engage at all when I ask them to explain why.

The arguments on here that someone else might have posted it are surely not massively relevant either. If I buy a postage label then ask someone else to post it who gets a proof of posting, does that mean I still can't claim as I didn't post it?

Of course, my other consideration is whether this is all worth the hassle for a tenner of postage and items worth about £40.

sghughes42

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Thanks for coming back OP

Did you give proof of the purchase via eBay with the claim?

When they denied the claim did they do this by letter?

If so was there an email address to contact if you were unhappy with the response?

Going back a good few years now but there used to be such an email address in the letter.

Yes, they denied the claim by letter. This is where it became a murky mess! I'd originally contacted them to find out how to prove the value of the item - you get told to do this after submitting the claim. It took so long to get this clarified that they'd rejected the claim before I'd even been able to establish what they needed to show value.

I'd initially though the rejection was just because this information was missing but upon contacting them found the lack of proof of posting was another reason and I've been going in circles ever since with them trying to get them to explain why the evidence that I bought the label for an item they have since scanned isn't enough to prove I posted it.

Okell

sghughes42 said:

The wording they use is Proof of Posting. I've tried arguing that proof of postage combined with a tracking scan is pretty good evidence of posting but they seem to be just reading from a script and won't engage at all when I ask them to explain why.

The arguments on here that someone else might have posted it are surely not massively relevant either. If I buy a postage label then ask someone else to post it who gets a proof of posting, does that mean I still can't claim as I didn't post it?

Of course, my other consideration is whether this is all worth the hassle for a tenner of postage and items worth about £40.

A Letter Before Action will cost you a stamp.  (Of course it could get lost in the post...  )

If they don't cough up you'd have to decide if it was worth pursuing to get £10 + £40 back.

To issue a claim would cost you £35 - and you would include recovery of that fee in your claim.

So if you win you get your money plus the court fee back - if you lose it's only cost you another £35

Of course if it gets to court no outcome is guaranteed...

soolin

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

MobileSaver said:

RefluentBeans said:

Additionally, the OP has said they are asking for proof of postage, not proof of purchase. Proof of postage is just that - proof the parcel was posted. ... That doesn’t transfer  the contract to the poster, merely confirms that the package has been posted.

I think you have this the wrong way round. It's an easy mistake to make but you are confusing "proof of postage" with "proof of posting". Postage is a noun meaning the amount it costs to send something, posting of course is a verb describing the actual sending of something. 

So proof of postage means the receipt in colloquial terms - it appears it is this which the OP doesn't have and so not surprisingly Royal Mail are saying they have no liability towards the OP.

I think some people say proof of postage and others say proof of posting but both mean the same thing, i.e the receipt you get from Royal Mail or the Post Office which has part of the address on with some other bits of info to show you handed the parcel over. 

Then there is proof of purchase which is proof you paid for something

Depending upon where a label is purchased proof of purchase may include all the parcels details.

To add to the complication, you can buy online from Royal Mail, drop off at the Royal Mail Delivery Office (which isn't the Post Office), they will scan the parcel so the tracking will have an acceptance scan but you won't get an email or paper receipt in return. For tracked mail it would be extremely poor of Royal Mail to decline compensation if you purchase then drop off the parcel in this manner. 

I take my items to the mail centre a lot and use a bulk certificate of posting as proof of posting. They take my parcels, scan them and then stamp my POP. I've used that bulk form to claim a loss .

This is what I use when I drop packages of at the mail centre Royal-Mail-Bulk-Certificate-Posting-Standard-editable-Sept-2016_0.pdf (royalmail.com)

I don't use one at the  Post office as they give me a till receipt that states it is needed in case of issues and is my receipt of posting  for all my items once they scan them. That shows the address of the buyer and the service sued.

sghughes42

soolin said:

I take my items to the mail centre a lot and use a bulk certificate of posting as proof of posting. They take my parcels, scan them and then stamp my POP. I've used that bulk form to claim a loss .

That's interesting. I've done that in the past - before the hours of the counter at our local mail centre were cut to make that impractical - but they always made it clear they had no way to provide or validate PoPs.

It must vary from one to another, but as I say it's irrelevant now the hours are such that I can't get there anyway.

soolin

MobileSaver said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

MobileSaver said:

RefluentBeans said:

Additionally, the OP has said they are asking for proof of postage, not proof of purchase. Proof of postage is just that - proof the parcel was posted. ... That doesn’t transfer  the contract to the poster, merely confirms that the package has been posted.

I think you have this the wrong way round. It's an easy mistake to make but you are confusing "proof of postage" with "proof of posting". Postage is a noun meaning the amount it costs to send something, posting of course is a verb describing the actual sending of something. 

So proof of postage means the receipt in colloquial terms - it appears it is this which the OP doesn't have and so not surprisingly Royal Mail are saying they have no liability towards the OP.

I think some people say proof of postage and others say proof of posting but both mean the same thing, i.e the receipt you get from Royal Mail or the Post Office which has part of the address on with some other bits of info to show you handed the parcel over.

"Some" people may well use both terms to mean the same thing but they'd be wrong to do so!

Royal Mail specifically asked for proof of postage - this is the receipt or proof of purchase showing how much was paid. Very often this receipt will also show proof of posting but not always if for example you actually purchased a book of stamps.

Conversely a proof of posting shows when you posted something but does not necessarily show that you paid the postage and therefore are entitled to any refund. E.g. you can get a proof of posting when you use a retailer's pre-paid return label but will often have no idea how much the postage costs.

I think there is a real chance of getting bogged down in correct use of words - Royal mail require proof that item was accepted into the system, their own bulk form calls this a certificate of posting - I use this at the mail centre when I drop parcels off. It shows address of recipient and is used in case I ever need to make a claim (my last was last week after about a year of no losses). Royal-Mail-Bulk-Certificate-Posting-Standard-editable-Sept-2016_0.pdf (royalmail.com)

sghughes42

Okell said:

A Letter Before Action will cost you a stamp.  (Of course it could get lost in the post...  )

If they don't cough up you'd have to decide if it was worth pursuing to get £10 + £40 back.

To issue a claim would cost you £35 - and you would include recovery of that fee in your claim.

So if you win you get your money plus the court fee back - if you lose it's only cost you another £35

Of course if it gets to court no outcome is guaranteed...

Would any aspect of time be claimable?

I'm thinking mainly that I could spend a few hours following this up, or I could forget it, spend those hours designing new stuff and probably make as much profit as I've lost... And it's less stressful which is probably better for me overall.