Theft of assets belonging to an estate

pjs493

My cousin’s father-in-law recently died in his 70s after a long illness. He had four children. Two from his first marriage, two from his second (with a 20 year age gap between siblings 2 and 3 so the two pairs aren’t super close with each other), and none from his third marriage which happened much later in life.

Both of the first two marriages ended when the wives died and they both left everything to the father-in-law. The four siblings are now adults, but their mothers both died when they were all still children. My cousin is married to one of the younger siblings. 

Since the death some old family issues have resurfaced. The two older siblings have a lot of animosity towards the third wife and the younger two siblings have a better relationship with her but it isn’t ideal. The father in law made some gifts (eg a car to one, paid for some roof repairs for another, etc etc) before he died to each of his children but his estate went to his surviving wife in its entirety. She has an adult child from her first marriage. 

My cousin and her husband just found out that one of the older siblings has stolen items from the estate worth approximately £30k. They’ve done this quite brazenly arguing that the house and most of the assets originate from marriage number one. The sibling is clearly upset that (other than the gift they received when their father was in ill health) they’ve received nothing from the estate of which a good portion of it came from their mother. No one knows what the surviving wife has written into her will, but it’s expected that her biological child will inherit everything, which I think is where a lot of the friction is currently coming from. 

My cousin’s spouse told the step mother about what their half-sibling did, and now the step mother wants to (quite rightly) report the theft to the police. The other siblings are worried about the consequences of police involvement and have tried to convince the sibling to return the items, but they’ve refused. 

Are the police likely to act? The step mother is executor of the Will. She is firm that the theft needs to be reported to the police because she has a legal duty to ensure the estate is administered correctly. 

What is the likely outcome if the sibling can’t be convinced to return the stolen items? Are the police likely to act, especially given the admission of theft, or will they just ignore it and say it’s a family matter?

bobster2

pjs493 said:

Are the police likely to act? The step mother is executor of the Will. She is firm that the theft needs to be reported to the police because she has a legal duty to ensure the estate is administered correctly. 

What is the likely outcome if the sibling can’t be convinced to return the stolen items? Are the police likely to act, especially given the admission of theft, or will they just ignore it and say it’s a family matter?

Lot of narrative there and really hard to work out who is who. But I think the executor is your cousin's father-in-law's second wife?

So if the spouse of the deceased is the executor and sole beneficiary of his will - and she feels the theft needs to be reported to the police - then that is her decision. Police probably won't do much - and she would likely need to take civil action to recover things. But an extended web of family members all voicing their opinion and interfering is not likely to be helpful.

Sea_Shell

You say the theft was from "the estate", so was this after they'd died.

If so, how did they gain access to the house, if the widow is not their mum?   

I can see how the disinherited children would be upset and want something that they feel was their Mum's, but just taking it, rather than asking nicely for something, is wrong and so should be reported if that's how she feels.

However, I don't think the police will be that interested TBH 


ETA - What sort of things were taken?   Jewellery, artworks, other valuables?

Also, why wasn't this all sorted out when their Mum died, and "her" things gifted to her children, by their Dad, regardless of who inherited what, officially?

user1977

If the police do anything it's to consider whether a prosecution is warranted (which seems doubtful for an intra-family dispute, where there are civil remedies and it sounds murky as to whether anything could be proved beyond reasonable doubt).

They are not a publicly-funded debt recovery service.

Savvy_Sue

Sea_Shell said:

Also, why wasn't this all sorted out when their Mum died, and "her" things gifted to her children, by their Dad, regardless of who inherited what, officially?

I think because all these four were children when wife 1 and wife 2 died - 1st post.

pjs493

Sea_Shell said:

You say the theft was from "the estate", so was this after they'd died.

If so, how did they gain access to the house, if the widow is not their mum?   

I can see how the disinherited children would be upset and want something that they feel was their Mum's, but just taking it, rather than asking nicely for something, is wrong and so should be reported if that's how she feels.

However, I don't think the police will be that interested TBH 


ETA - What sort of things were taken?   Jewellery, artworks, other valuables?

Also, why wasn't this all sorted out when their Mum died, and "her" things gifted to her children, by their Dad, regardless of who inherited what, officially?

All four siblings have had keys to the house since they lived there as children and in the final days it helped them get in and out to provide care. The items were taken after the father died and it became apparent that the step mother would inherit everything. 

The two older siblings were young children when their mum died in a car accident so I assume (although I could be wrong) that she died intestate and everything automatically went to the dad. I really don’t know if he gave them any items specifically belonging to their mum like jewellery when they were older. 

I’m not 100% sure on all the items that were taken as I only had a brief chat with my cousin, but at least one item is a piece of antique furniture because my cousin was surprised the sibling managed to remove it without help. Given the value, I imagine some of it could be high value small items such as jewellery or artwork. 

pjs493

bobster2 said:

pjs493 said:

Are the police likely to act? The step mother is executor of the Will. She is firm that the theft needs to be reported to the police because she has a legal duty to ensure the estate is administered correctly. 

What is the likely outcome if the sibling can’t be convinced to return the stolen items? Are the police likely to act, especially given the admission of theft, or will they just ignore it and say it’s a family matter?

Lot of narrative there and really hard to work out who is who. But I think the executor is your cousin's father-in-law's second wife?

So if the spouse of the deceased is the executor and sole beneficiary of his will - and she feels the theft needs to be reported to the police - then that is her decision. Police probably won't do much - and she would likely need to take civil action to recover things. But an extended web of family members all voicing their opinion and interfering is not likely to be helpful.

The surviving spouse and executor is the third wife (the other two died). 

From what I gather everyone just wants the sibling to do the right thing and return what they stole but they are refusing. 

pjs493

user1977 said:

If the police do anything it's to consider whether a prosecution is warranted (which seems doubtful for an intra-family dispute, where there are civil remedies and it sounds murky as to whether anything could be proved beyond reasonable doubt).

They are not a publicly-funded debt recovery service.

My cousin seemed to think that ownership is pretty cut and dry because the items were listed individually on insurance documents held by the deceased father and step mother so the fact that they belonged to the estate is easy to prove. Plus all the family members know they are from the house and the sibling has admitted to stealing them. 

I’m not sure how it could be compared to a debt recovery service. Items have been stolen and the owner knows who has them. I would have thought this would be pretty cut and dry for the police. It’s not like a burglary with an unknown suspect. It is quite literally daylight robbery. 

I think the step mum is hoping that the police knocking on the door of the sibling might be enough to convince them to return the stolen goods. 

YoungBlueEyes

Speaking as someone who's been through something very similar, I'd say let it go. While it may technically be theft from the estate I doubt you'd get the police to take it seriously. It may be galling, and you may legally be correct, sometimes it's better to go the ...morally (?) correct... route.

Our father was married twice, 2 daughters each time, both wives died before him, both intestate. As the youngest siblings my sister and I got everything, but when the 2 eldest daughters wanted various bits we gave them to them. They weren't that kind of value mind, but the principle's the same. Depending on how you look at it they're either keeping something from their childhood to save it going to a stranger, or they're lifting the high value items for their own monetary gain. If they tried to do it properly and ask the 3rd wife for those items, would she say yes? 

I am not a lawyer. 

Spendless

So it's the same house that the deceased has lived in initially with his first wife? How was the house owned by the time of his death?  Did 3rd wife become JT with him so it has now passed solely into her ownership? Has anyone checked this angle out? 

Also how is the £30K been estimated? Antiques including furniture have come up on here before, it's rarely worth the amount the person posting about it says it is. I would clarify exactly what has gone - whilst accepting that taking without permission for whatever reason isn't acceptable. From previous thread police rarely or barely get involved in these matters. 

It's a shame blended families - and her you have a case of 2 lots, 3 if you include step-Mums child - don't make some  provision for the offspring of previous relationships whilst not wishing to make their current spouse at a disadvantage after their death   but it does sound like the Dad did try to remedy at least some of that by gifting cars and repairs etc. 

Sea_Shell

Not the way to have gone about it, obviously, and SM is feeling she's been "robbed", but maybe, if these items really were "heirlooms" of the previous wife's side of the family, then maybe she should "let it go" and get the locks changed.


Is there likely to be IHT to pay against the value of the estate, if these items are included?   Do they have a real "open market" value of £30k, rather than insurance value?