Theft of assets belonging to an estate

pjs493

YoungBlueEyes said:

Speaking as someone who's been through something very similar, I'd say let it go. While it may technically be theft from the estate I doubt you'd get the police to take it seriously. It may be galling, and you may legally be correct, sometimes it's better to go the ...morally (?) correct... route.

Our father was married twice, 2 daughters each time, both wives died before him, both intestate. As the youngest siblings my sister and I got everything, but when the 2 eldest daughters wanted various bits we gave them to them. They weren't that kind of value mind, but the principle's the same. Depending on how you look at it they're either keeping something from their childhood to save it going to a stranger, or they're lifting the high value items for their own monetary gain. If they tried to do it properly and ask the 3rd wife for those items, would she say yes? 

I am not a lawyer. 

So the plot thickens. Having just spoken to my cousin it turns out that the items stolen were deliberately chosen for their high monetary value. And possibly the ease of removing them from the house quickly when it was known to be empty. 

It wasn’t a case of sibling 1 wanting their mother’s engagement ring for sentimental reasons which is why they took the approach they did. Apparently the step mum would have been open to giving such an item (having no interest in a previous wife’s jewellery) and has already offered the other siblings the option of choosing some items they’d like to have for sentimental reasons once the dust settles. There has apparently been some discussion about the house and the value held in it, but as my cousin’s husband has no interest in monetary gain from the estate they’ve decided to keep out of that argument. 

There was a piece of antique furniture and a couple of pieces of art stolen. The dad bought the art during a time when he wasn’t married to anyone and it turned out to be a good investment and has increased in value over the years. The sum of ‘around £30k’ was given by the step mum based on insurance valuations and documentation. 

pjs493

Spendless said:

So it's the same house that the deceased has lived in initially with his first wife? How was the house owned by the time of his death?  Did 3rd wife become JT with him so it has now passed solely into her ownership? Has anyone checked this angle out? 

Also how is the £30K been estimated? Antiques including furniture have come up on here before, it's rarely worth the amount the person posting about it says it is. I would clarify exactly what has gone - whilst accepting that taking without permission for whatever reason isn't acceptable. From previous thread police rarely or barely get involved in these matters. 

It's a shame blended families - and her you have a case of 2 lots, 3 if you include step-Mums child - don't make some  provision for the offspring of previous relationships whilst not wishing to make their current spouse at a disadvantage after their death   but it does sound like the Dad did try to remedy at least some of that by gifting cars and repairs etc. 

Yes, the house was purchased about 50 years ago by wife 1 and the husband. I’m unsure what the ownership situation is regarding the house now with wife 3. Only that the mortgage was paid off decades ago when wife 2 was alive. 

The value was stated based on insurance documents and apparently the artwork was appraised a few years ago by a dealer and its value had increased a lot since it was first purchased. Something about the artist being fairly unknown at the time of purchase but then becoming well known. 

I get your point about blended families. My parents divorced and both remarried. My mum went on to have children with her second husband and they are still married. I suspect my full sibling and I won’t receive anything from that estate. I don’t even think my mother has a Will. My dad is now twice divorced and has apparently left everything to my sister and I in his Will. 

I agree that the dad did attempt to remedy with the gifts of cars etc, but at the time I don’t think the sibling who stole stuff really thought of it that way. It apparently came as a shock that everything had been left to the step mum. Everyone assumed the dad had made provisions for his children. 

But when I asked my cousin about this she said her husband was just consumed with taking care of his dad and preparing himself for the loss and didn’t really give inheritance a thought. They’re financially well off so I don’t think they really care about getting anything from the estate. They turned down the offer of a new car when it was offered and instead the dad put some money in the grand children’s savings accounts. 

It seems the dad was keen to give something to each of his children in an equitable way before he died, but one of the siblings is still not happy resulting in the theft. 

pjs493

Sea_Shell said:

Not the way to have gone about it, obviously, and SM is feeling she's been "robbed", but maybe, if these items really were "heirlooms" of the previous wife's side of the family, then maybe she should "let it go" and get the locks changed.


Is there likely to be IHT to pay against the value of the estate, if these items are included?   Do they have a real "open market" value of £30k, rather than insurance value?

I’m hearing the story third hand so some details are a bit vague. I don’t know the origin of the piece of furniture, but the artwork was purchased while the dad was between wives. 

Locks have apparently been changed. 

I don’t know if IHT will come into play. I’d guess the house is worth about £300k, but no idea of the value of other assets, savings, etc. My guess would be it’s below the IHT threshold. I believe there were lots of care bills towards the end with private nurses hired for round the clock care. Step mum is elderly too so there is presumably sufficient for her to live off with pensions etc somewhat comfortably until her time comes given there is no mortgage. But we aren’t talking about tons of money here. Which I think is why the theft of £30k worth of stuff is hitting hard because it must be a big wedge of the estate’s value (excepting the house).

I was personally surprised that there was £30k worth of stuff to steal when I heard it didn’t include jewellery (which was apparently locked in a safe). 

Apparently the value is primarily based on insurance values, but the art was independently appraised a few years ago when the artist became well known and the step mum also has a letter relating to that as proof of value alongside insurance documents. 

Sea_Shell

We're these items she loved, or would she have sold them to release their value at some stage?

It might be a chunk of the estate, but it wasn't actual cash (we've had cases on here where actual cash has been "misappropriated" ☹️)

At the end of the day, what will be gained by pursuing this.   

tooldle

Was the offer of items for sentimental reasons, made prior or after the ‘theft’?

user1977

pjs493 said:

user1977 said:

If the police do anything it's to consider whether a prosecution is warranted (which seems doubtful for an intra-family dispute, where there are civil remedies and it sounds murky as to whether anything could be proved beyond reasonable doubt).

They are not a publicly-funded debt recovery service.

I’m not sure how it could be compared to a debt recovery service.

Neither do I, but some people seem to think that getting the police involved means the police will sort everything out for them.

And even if the criminal justice system does get involved, it moves very slowly. It's not really an alternative to taking civil action.

Spendless

I *think* you can find out how a property is held (if anyone wishes to) but I'm not sure how or if you can do it after one party has just died. I'm sure someone else can explain more.

What this sounds like to me (I could be completely wrong) that child of 1st marriage has felt very resentful that some items and/or wealth originally generated from their mother  or because of her dying. Then along came wife #2 when the first lot of kids were adults and they needed to get their head around there were half siblings and a step Mum and anything that might one day have come their way possibly wouldn't - but then 2nd wife dies and all 4 kids are on an 'equal footing' as they share the same Dad. Only then wife #3 comes along and there's no children of this marriage but she has a child herself. No connection at all to Dad's 4 kids. Then Dad dies wife#3 is elderly and child sees everything connected to Dad disappearing to someone unconnected so takes it upon themselves to correct what they see as a 'wrong' 

Hope it gets resolved.

pjs493

Spendless said:

I *think* you can find out how a property is held (if anyone wishes to) but I'm not sure how or if you can do it after one party has just died. I'm sure someone else can explain more.

What this sounds like to me (I could be completely wrong) that child of 1st marriage has felt very resentful that some items and/or wealth originally generated from their motherchild sees  or because of her dying. Then along came wife #2 when the first lot of kids were adults and they needed to get their head around there were half siblings and a step Mum and anything that might one day have come their way possibly wouldn't - but then 2nd wife dies and all 4 kids are on an 'equal footing' as they share the same Dad. Only then wife #3 comes along and there's no children of this marriage but she has a child herself. No connection at all to Dad's 4 kids. Then Dad dies wife#3 is elderly and child sees everything connected to Dad disappearing to someone unconnected so takes it upon themselves to correct what they see as a 'wrong' 

Hope it gets resolved.

You've summed it up well. I got quite narrative in my initial post because it was a bit complicated given the blended family situation and I wanted to avoid the thread getting off track by explaining the convoluted family relationships.

With regards to how the property (the house) was/is held, I doubt I'll ever find out. It is after all my cousin's late father-in-law. We just got chatting about the theft last night while on the phone and I thought I'd ask the question here to see if there was a straightforward solution.

Hopefully reason will resolve the situation. It appears the sibling took the items of value, not because they had a sentimental attachment to them but, to grab valuable assets when they learned that they weren't due to inherit anything from the Will in the days after their father died.

pjs493

user1977 said:

Neither do I, but some people seem to think that getting the police involved means the police will sort everything out for them.

And even if the criminal justice system does get involved, it moves very slowly. It's not really an alternative to taking civil action.

I think the step mother is hoping that having the police knock on the door will make the sibling realise just how serious what they did is. What civil action could be taken in this case?

I think everyone is hoping that the sibling sees sense and returns the items. It apparently all happened very quickly in the days following the death. There has been a lot of 'they weren't in their right mind' or 'they were upset so not thinking about the consequences' rationalisation going on because of how upset everyone was following the death.

pjs493

tooldle said:

Was the offer of items for sentimental reasons, made prior or after the ‘theft’?

It all happened rather quickly after the death so I'm not sure what order it all happened in. The items were taken within days of the death while the step mother was out making arrangements for the funeral. From what my cousin has said it seems that the step mother was always open to offering out sentimental items. The items taken were apparently taken for their value and not because of a sentimental attachment. It might be worth adding that of all four siblings, the one who took the items is the least financially settled. So it appears to be financially motivated.