Cooling off period

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Cheechee said:

So, I've been googling and found a lot of interesting facts that lead me to believe I can reject (this terminology has been used) this car. Furthermore, I believe they can't make any deductions because I haven't been given any cancellation policy details nor can I find any on their website or in their terms and conditions.  

I've copied bits I think are relevant from the sites I've been viewing but also given you the link if you want a longer read (sorry it's long).

Just a note about me test driving a different car at a different premises (both dealerships are not connected) doesn't seem to be an issue because I didn't actually see my car and the transaction was all done via email.

https://www.specialistautomotivefinance.org.uk/resources/distance-selling-dealerships.html/

Distance selling in dealerships

The Consumer Contracts Regulations give customers who buy goods from a dealer outright the right to change their mind and cancel an order within 14 days of receiving the vehicle. 

Cancellations and refunds

The time limits for sales contracts and order cancellations are as follows:

• The contract must be cancelled within 14 days after delivery of the vehicle.  The vehicle must then (depending on the dealer's terms) be made available for collection.
• A customer who decides to return the vehicle within these time limits is entitled to expect the full amount to be refunded within 14 days.

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https://autowebdesign.co.uk/blog/distance-selling-regulations-for-car-dealers#:~:text=In%20short%2C%20if%20a%20contract,the%20customer%20commits%20to%20buy.

 

“The legal definition of a distance sale means that if a customer commits to a purchase before physically seeing a vehicle, it is almost certainly a distance sale

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https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/distance-selling-regulations-a-thing-of-the-past/#:~:text=under%20the%20regulations.-,The%20regulations%20only%20apply%20to%20consumer%20contracts%2C%20not%20business%2Dto,other%20than%20at%20your%20premises.

 

 The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 came into effect in June 2014.

The regulations only apply to consumer contracts, not business-to-business sales, and only apply to sales conducted at a distance, meaning those where the consumer has not been to your premises or payment to conclude the sale is made anywhere other than at your premises.

The regulations permit a consumer to cancel the sale for a full refund within 14 days, without the need for a fault to be present.

If, however, the correct paperwork regarding the cancellation rights is not given in writing before a sale, the consumer will be entitled to cancel the sale for any reason within one year and 14 days of the sale. Further, in the absence of the correct paperwork, there is no right for the dealer to charge for deductions and they will be liable to collect the vehicle. Essentially, a consumer could have free use of a vehicle for over a year, and the dealer would be obliged to take back the vehicle and provide a refund.

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https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/distance-sales-getting-the-paperwork-right/

 

Whether you are offering Click & Collect or Click & Deliver, you need to know what paperwork to give in regard to distance sales.

Failure to give the correct paperwork will mean you give the consumer the right to return a vehicle for a refund (for no particular reason – there doesn’t have to be a fault) anytime in the next year. It will mean you may not be able to make a deduction for usage or damage, and worse, you may end up with a bigger loss if you have not made it clear that the consumer is liable for insuring the vehicle right up to the point of return. It will also mean that you find yourself having to collect the vehicle rather than being able to insist the consumer returns it to you.

In short, you fall foul of the law and make your life harder and more expensive if you fail to provide the correct paperwork and set out the terms of the distance sale.

 

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https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/forums/topic/pcp/

 

·        I am thinking of buying a new car. I have the cash to buy it, but the salesman says that if I agree to PCP the dealer contributes £4,000 so I should opt for that and then exercise my right to withdraw and pay the finance company off.

Are there any issues with that? What should I check?

Thanks

Yes, this can be done – depending on what your vehicle contract says.

Any PCP agreement comes with a 14-day right to cancel with no penalty. The finance company will then invoice you for the value of what was originally financed (not the value of the car), so you have to pay up straight away.

As the deposit contribution (which is basically a discount, although it’s preferable for the manufacturer to arrange it as a deposit contribution) is money you don’t have to pay before delivery, there’s no realistic way they can make you pay it afterwards. The only way they can try is if the vehicle contract specifically says that the deposit contribution is subject to maintaining the PCP for a period of time. In practical terms, this doesn’t usually happen.

Essentially, they are banking on most customers preferring to keep their money in the bank and not cancel the finance.

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https://www.autotraderinsight-blog.co.uk/auto-trader-insight-blog/distance-selling-guide

 

 

The Ultimate Guide to Distance Selling

The two methods of operating distance selling are click & collect, whereby a buyer purchases the vehicle and then travels to the retailer to pick up the vehicle, and home delivery where the vehicle is purchased and delivered to the buyer by the retailer.

In both instances the purchase has to made away from the retail premises, in accordance with current restrictions in England, and buyers will legally be entitled to a 14 day return period from when they take ownership of the vehicle. This is a legal obligation and must be explained to the buyer during the buying process.

 Trading standards expert Peter Stonely explained that these rights cannot be removed by a disclaimer and failure to communicate the 14 day right to cancel period, to a buyer through contract or on your website, will mean that they automatically have 12 months to cancel. He suggests that retailers should highlight the 14 day right to cancel on your website as well as sent to the buyer via email and/or post.

 

Overcoming the Fear of Returns

One of the risks of distance selling that concerned retailers the most was the likelihood of a customer rejecting the car. But both Nona and Sean revealed that, in their experience, this happens in very few cases. Having confidence in the vehicle you are selling, the transaction experience you are giving the customer, having a rudimentary understanding of distance selling and making consumers aware of their rights was key to successfully operating a remote selling process both now, at a time when it’s the only model available, and in the future when consumers will see buying this way as the normal.

Dissecting the Details of Distance Selling regulations

A third of retailers we polled that do not offer remote services did so because they were concerned about government guidelines and unsure of distance selling legislation. The full regulations can be found by clicking here but main thing retailers must abide by when it comes to distance selling is the 14 day cancellation period which, as previously stated, is a legal obligation and must me made clear to the buyer. So long as you abide by this you have the main element covered.

But whilst retailers cannot change the 14 day return period, they can include certain terms to make the return process easier for both the retailer and buyer. Nona Bowkis recommends that retailers create a robust set of returns terms and conditions to ensure an easy returns process for both the buyer and retailer. Within these terms Nona suggests that retailers set out how many miles can be covered within this period and what charges will apply should the vehicle be returned with excess mileage e.g. charging £1 a mile if a vehicle is returned with mileage exceeding the figure in the contract. The number of miles permitted to be covered will need to be considered reasonable but there is no pre-defined number. The condition that the vehicle must be in upon return must also be stipulated and Nona also suggests adding a clause as to who’s responsibility it is to deliver the returned vehicle to the forecourt i.e. the buyer must return the vehicle in the event they initiate a return. 

If a vehicle is returned you will be required to refund the buyer in full, if they have adhered to your returns policy. However, if the vehicle was purchased on finance then the retailer will need to liaise with the finance company to enable the refund of funds paid. Most finance companies will already have a facility for returns in such instances.

 

 

 

That's pretty much what I said back on page 3  

"Furthermore, I believe they can't make any deductions because I haven't been given any cancellation policy details "

This is the key point for you really, where the consumer says the trader didn't give the information it is for the trader to show they did, if they can't do this and it's a distance sale then I don't see they have any defence against a full refund.  

MeteredOut

RefluentBeans said:

Cheechee said:

Seriously, some people are so accusing.

I can't keep saying it, nothing untoward is going on, nothing murky or shady or anything else. Think it is probably time I 'flounce' off.  Not really sure I want to take advice from some people who clearly think something strange is happening here. And no, I'm not chucking my toys out of the pram, just realising this is probably not the right place for me.

I guess this will be one of those threads you never get to hear the outcome which was never my intention but I'm off to Google some more with a friendly wave to all of you, even the doubters.

But before I go, I must applaud posters for digging out old threads of mine, bit pointless really but if it makes you happy . . . 

Thanks for everyone's input

The old posts add a lot of context. I think expecting a clear cut response when you were unwilling to contextualise the situation is kind of naive. This is a complex situation as it is, and relying on the facts you are willing to divulge will always make you look better than if you were to present all facts, warts and all. 

Like I said before - this forum is not a legal advice forum (I’m fairly sure that no legally qualified person would be willing to give legal advice on a public forum without getting all the facts). You can get a short appointment with a legal professional (in fact there are some law clinics who offer free advice from training students under the supervision of qualified professionals). It may be worth going and asking them, but giving them all the information that you haven’t been willing to give to us.

If this gets to court, the court will look at probabilities. The fact you seem to want to keep the £4k incentive is, to me, pretty damning. The fact you aren’t willing to let the dealership make the minor repairs is, to me, pretty damning. The fact you were driving the car up to the point you were told to stop, to me, pretty damning. The fact you haven’t been as responsive to questions (even a simple question like miles on the clock) is, to me, pretty damning. I can’t make a judgement on if the case will be successful. But there’s a lot of things that go against you, and my gut isn’t going that you are in the right here. You say nothing shady is going on; but I’ve only got your word for that, and you haven’t exactly been telling the whole truth throughout the story.

Good luck OP - hope it works out for you.

Has the OP actually stated they got/would keep the £4K incentive? When I bought my last car, I got a £2K incentive for buying through finance - that didn't come to me, but knocked £2K off my finance. Whether the dealership got my finance amount or my finance amount + £2K, I don't know.

So, in the case of the OP, it could it be that the dealership windscreen price for the car was actually £41K, the finance incentive brought it down to £37K, which is what the OP financed for. They now want to give the car back and get the £37K back (to give back to their friend). If so, they're not keeping/gained £4K.

It's now not clear to me if the OP wants to cancel, or wants to reject. And if he wants to reject, has he actually stated what the issue with the car were?

sheramber

MeteredOut said:

RefluentBeans said:

Cheechee said:

Seriously, some people are so accusing.

I can't keep saying it, nothing untoward is going on, nothing murky or shady or anything else. Think it is probably time I 'flounce' off.  Not really sure I want to take advice from some people who clearly think something strange is happening here. And no, I'm not chucking my toys out of the pram, just realising this is probably not the right place for me.

I guess this will be one of those threads you never get to hear the outcome which was never my intention but I'm off to Google some more with a friendly wave to all of you, even the doubters.

But before I go, I must applaud posters for digging out old threads of mine, bit pointless really but if it makes you happy . . . 

Thanks for everyone's input

The old posts add a lot of context. I think expecting a clear cut response when you were unwilling to contextualise the situation is kind of naive. This is a complex situation as it is, and relying on the facts you are willing to divulge will always make you look better than if you were to present all facts, warts and all. 

Like I said before - this forum is not a legal advice forum (I’m fairly sure that no legally qualified person would be willing to give legal advice on a public forum without getting all the facts). You can get a short appointment with a legal professional (in fact there are some law clinics who offer free advice from training students under the supervision of qualified professionals). It may be worth going and asking them, but giving them all the information that you haven’t been willing to give to us.

If this gets to court, the court will look at probabilities. The fact you seem to want to keep the £4k incentive is, to me, pretty damning. The fact you aren’t willing to let the dealership make the minor repairs is, to me, pretty damning. The fact you were driving the car up to the point you were told to stop, to me, pretty damning. The fact you haven’t been as responsive to questions (even a simple question like miles on the clock) is, to me, pretty damning. I can’t make a judgement on if the case will be successful. But there’s a lot of things that go against you, and my gut isn’t going that you are in the right here. You say nothing shady is going on; but I’ve only got your word for that, and you haven’t exactly been telling the whole truth throughout the story.

Good luck OP - hope it works out for you.

Has the OP actually stated they got/would keep the £4K incentive? When I bought my last car, I got a £2K incentive for buying through finance - that didn't come to me, but knocked £2K off my finance. Whether the dealership got my finance amount or my finance amount + £2K, I don't know.

So, in the case of the OP, it could it be that the dealership windscreen price for the car was actually £41K, the finance incentive brought it down to £37K, which is what the OP financed for. They now want to give the car back and get the £37K back (to give back to their friend). If so, they're not keeping/gained £4K.

It's now not clear to me if the OP wants to cancel, or wants to reject. And if he wants to reject, has he actually stated what the issue with the car were?

Whether cancel or reject, the OP wants the garage to take his car back and give him his money back.  He doesn't really care what it is called, not realising what it is called makes a difference.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

MeteredOut said:

Has the OP actually stated they got/would keep the £4K incentive? When I bought my last car, I got a £2K incentive for buying through finance - that didn't come to me, but knocked £2K off my finance. Whether the dealership got my finance amount or my finance amount + £2K, I don't know.

So, in the case of the OP, it could it be that the dealership windscreen price for the car was actually £41K, the finance incentive brought it down to £37K, which is what the OP financed for. They now want to give the car back and get the £37K back (to give back to their friend). If so, they're not keeping/gained £4K.

It's now not clear to me if the OP wants to cancel, or wants to reject. And if he wants to reject, has he actually stated what the issue with the car were?

I'm not sure how incentives work, I would assume a sensible dealership has this covered, if £xk knocked off the price of the car then you'd get back whatever the price paid is ("full price minus £xk knocked off).

If the car is "full price" and the dealership pays off £xk on the finance I would assume the dealership get that money back, I don't see it being much different get getting a free gift if you spend £60 and when you cancel the free gift would have to go back as well, but I'm not 100% sure on the specifics of this point, may come down to exactly how everything is worded but generally I don't think legal processes are designed for either party to gain a windfall so it seems doubtful to my mind someone would be able to benefit by keeping an incentive.

MeteredOut

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

MeteredOut said:

Has the OP actually stated they got/would keep the £4K incentive? When I bought my last car, I got a £2K incentive for buying through finance - that didn't come to me, but knocked £2K off my finance. Whether the dealership got my finance amount or my finance amount + £2K, I don't know.

So, in the case of the OP, it could it be that the dealership windscreen price for the car was actually £41K, the finance incentive brought it down to £37K, which is what the OP financed for. They now want to give the car back and get the £37K back (to give back to their friend). If so, they're not keeping/gained £4K.

It's now not clear to me if the OP wants to cancel, or wants to reject. And if he wants to reject, has he actually stated what the issue with the car were?

I'm not sure how incentives work, I would assume a sensible dealership has this covered, if £xk knocked off the price of the car then you'd get back whatever the price paid is ("full price minus £xk knocked off).

If the car is "full price" and the dealership pays off £xk on the finance I would assume the dealership get that money back, I don't see it being much different get getting a free gift if you spend £60 and when you cancel the free gift would have to go back as well, but I'm not 100% sure on the specifics of this point, may come down to exactly how everything is worded but generally I don't think legal processes are designed for either party to gain a windfall so it seems doubtful to my mind someone would be able to benefit by keeping an incentive.

It's the finance company that takes the hit here when the finance is paid off early.

So, for the OP I suspect the dealership got somewhere between £37K and £41K from the finance company, the finance company got £37K from the OP (via their friend). So, I don't think the OP is keeping (or trying to keep) any incentive.

The finance company took that hit when the OP paid of the finance early - that was going to happen whether the OP keeps the car or not, so is probably moot in the overall discussion. It's an accepted cost of business for car financing companies.

This is assuming the incentive the OP referred to as the as I have described, and not some sort of cashback.

eg, In my case, I agreed a price £x for the car with the dealership. The incentive (Financial Deposit Contribution) was £2K. My finance was £x-2K. I then cancelled and repaid that finance within a few weeks (as was my right).

There's a thread about it here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6462339/any-reason-not-to-pay-off-pcp-early

BoGoF

MeteredOut said:

eg, In my case, I agreed a price £x for the car with the dealership. The incentive (Financial Deposit Contribution) was £2K. My finance was £x-2K. I then repaid that finance within a few weeks (as was my right).

The difference being you paid off the finance and kept the car? You didn't cancel the finance, repay it in full and return the car.

MeteredOut

BoGoF said:

MeteredOut said:

eg, In my case, I agreed a price £x for the car with the dealership. The incentive (Financial Deposit Contribution) was £2K. My finance was £x-2K. I then repaid that finance within a few weeks (as was my right).

The difference being you paid off the finance and kept the car? You didn't cancel the finance, repay it in full and return the car.

What difference? The claim was that the OP is keeping some incentive. I'm failing to see where that is the case.

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

That's pretty much what I said back on page 3  

"Furthermore, I believe they can't make any deductions because I haven't been given any cancellation policy details "

This is the key point for you really, where the consumer says the trader didn't give the information it is for the trader to show they did, if they can't do this and it's a distance sale then I don't see they have any defence against a full refund.  

It was my understanding that the failure to provide the prescribed information about cancellation rights had the effect of extending the consumer's cancellation period (from 14 days to 1 year and 14 days) but not the assessment of the value that is refunded.

It is also my understanding that the assessment of valuation of the refund can be reduced to reflect any excess handling (more than you would be able to viewing the car at the showroom).  I do not believe that this amount of refund or potential reduction is affected by the failure of the supplier to provide the information about cancellation.
(There is a marginal element about return transport costs.)

https://www.which.co.uk/consumer-rights/regulation/consumer-contracts-regulations-ajWHC8m21cAk

Taken to the extreme, the failure to provide the information about cancellation could mean having the brand new car for a year and then expecting a full refund.  That would be absurd.  Clearly, keeping (even if not using) a car for a year is far outwith what a consumer can do at the showroom, hence the deduction would apply for diminished value.

I am commenting as a genuine question to your "no defence against a full refund" comment which you seem to have linked to the failure to provide cancellation information.  It will benefit the thread and my knowledge if this is clear.

As an aside, I can't imagine that a franchised car Dealership does not have standard T's& C's that give the cancellation information.  It is more plausible that the consumer did not see / read that information.

As a second aside, this case does indicate that the CCR are being applied to situations where they were never intended to cover.  The "remote sale" of a car was probably a non-thing (or a very rare thing) 10 years back.  Like S75, this seems to be another area where the law needs to catch up with changes in behaviour.

born_again

Cheechee said:

Oh dear, this thread has evolved into a massive saga when all I wanted to know was my next steps should the dealer not respond (no response as yet).  As this is a public forum, I don't really want to put too many 'outing' details on here.  I am genuine but appreciate every one has their own opinion and have come to the conclusion I'm in it for a profit. NO, NOT AT ALL.  So as not to be to 'outing' I don't want to say the exact miles apart from it's less than 150.

No, I don't want this car as I feel it is damaged goods and the reason I will buy an identical car is so I can have a car without faults from the beginning without the need for repair a few days into ownership.  Maybe hard for some of you to understand but that is how I feel.  Sorry not to be able to answer all your questions, I'm loosing track a bit.  Next car I buy I will make sure I travel to see it before I sign on the dotted line.

There is nothing shady going on here AT ALL and no scheme either.

I don't seem to be getting any response to my initial questions, especially using money claims online.

No doubt someone will come along and pic this post to bits and no I'm not flouncing off, I'm just going to wait to here/not here and will update this thread with any news . . . I'll be back!!!!!!

Have we ever had what these faults are mentioned, or even which make/model?

As that would help, as someone pointed out, not all faults can lead to a rejection of car.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Grumpy_chap said:

It was my understanding that the failure to provide the prescribed information about cancellation rights had the effect of extending the consumer's cancellation period (from 14 days to 1 year and 14 days) but not the assessment of the value that is refunded.

It is also my understanding that the assessment of valuation of the refund can be reduced to reflect any excess handling (more than you would be able to viewing the car at the showroom).  I do not believe that this amount of refund or potential reduction is affected by the failure of the supplier to provide the information about cancellation.

Hi @Grumpy_chap

It's covered under S34

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2013/3134/regulation/34

(9) If (in the case of a sales contract) the value of the goods is diminished by any amount as a result of handling of the goods by the consumer beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods, the trader may recover that amount from the consumer, up to the contract price.

(10) An amount that may be recovered under paragraph (9)—

(a)may be deducted from the amount to be reimbursed under paragraph (1);

(b)otherwise, must be paid by the consumer to the trader.

(11) Paragraph (9) does not apply if the trader has failed to provide the consumer with the information on the right to cancel required by paragraph (l) of Schedule 2, in accordance with Part 2.

So whilst the trader must provide a lot of info, the part about not being able to reduce the refund only applies if they fail to give

(l)where a right to cancel exists, the conditions, time limit and procedures for exercising that right in accordance with regulations 27 to 38;

Guidence here:

https://www.businesscompanion.info/en/quick-guides/distance-sales/consumer-contracts-distance-sales#Righttocancel

You are not able to make any deduction for diminishing the value of the goods if you have not provided consumers with the information about their right to cancel (information item 'l' above).

No other deductions, such as cancellation or restocking fees, can be made when a consumer exercises their legal right to cancel.

Grumpy_chap said:

Taken to the extreme, the failure to provide the information about cancellation could mean having the brand new car for a year and then expecting a full refund.  That would be absurd.  

Yes I agree it would be but, apart from the value, no different really to a handsaw, fridge or car tyres. 

The regs seem to being imposing a very heavy penalty here for not giving the information. 

Grumpy_chap said:

As an aside, I can't imagine that a franchised car Dealership does not have standard T's& C's that give the cancellation information.  It is more plausible that the consumer did not see / read that information.

That's what I wondered which is why I think OP should very carefully check over all paperwork. I see the word "dealership" and think of a prestigious car showroom, perhaps OP means it as just some yard with cars to sell, I don't know. 

Grumpy_chap said:

As a second aside, this case does indicate that the CCR are being applied to situations where they were never intended to cover.  The "remote sale" of a car was probably a non-thing (or a very rare thing) 10 years back.  Like S75, this seems to be another area where the law needs to catch up with changes in behaviour.

I'm surprised as well that cars aren't excluded but on the other hand if the trader does their bit to provide the info (which is very basic and easy to do really) the consumer is likely on the hook for a fair sized reduction which would like put most people of cancelling a brand new car and for those that did the dealer wouldn't be out of pocket on the value of the goods (car).

I guess it's a question really of whether the punishment of no reduced refund is too harsh but given how easy it is to provide the info IMHO I don't think so. A template email or printed piece of paper does the job for info regarding cancelling. 

If you are going to set up a business there is a lot of obligations in various areas and this requirement is no different to the many others, other than being very easy to comply with.  

MeteredOut said:

It's the finance company that takes the hit here when the finance is paid off early.

So, for the OP I suspect the dealership got somewhere between £37K and £41K from the finance company, the finance company got £37K from the OP (via their friend). So, I don't think the OP is keeping (or trying to keep) any incentive.

The finance company took that hit when the OP paid of the finance early - that was going to happen whether the OP keeps the car or not, so is probably moot in the overall discussion. It's an accepted cost of business for car financing companies.

This is assuming the incentive the OP referred to as the as I have described, and not some sort of cashback.

eg, In my case, I agreed a price £x for the car with the dealership. The incentive (Financial Deposit Contribution) was £2K. My finance was £x-2K. I then cancelled and repaid that finance within a few weeks (as was my right).

There's a thread about it here: https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6462339/any-reason-not-to-pay-off-pcp-early

Bit confusing for my tired brain but 

"The incentive (Financial Deposit Contribution) was £2K"

Does that mean the dealership gave £2k to the finance co?