Cooling off period

Desmond_Hume

My life experience has taught me that anybody being cagey is at the very least being economical with the truth. We’re not getting the full story here. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Alderbank said:

Cheechee said:

Not about money claims online

Money claim online is for claims of up to £10,000, give or take a bit. How much will you be claiming?

I thought that too but the gov website mentions fees for claims over £200k?

OP it’s a good question as to how you are going to calculate any diminished value.

From posts on here, once your claim tips over £10k the process is different with regards to costs and if you lost for any reason it might end up costing you. 

General questions are is the dealership a long established business with assets? I would assume they are an LTD and you should check the history on Companies House to see what the chances of recovering money are in the even you win.

Personally I don’t think you really need to answer about the mileage but I would advise some professional advice if you looking to file a claim for tens of thousands of pounds.

Cheechee

So, I've been googling and found a lot of interesting facts that lead me to believe I can reject (this terminology has been used) this car. Furthermore, I believe they can't make any deductions because I haven't been given any cancellation policy details nor can I find any on their website or in their terms and conditions.  

I've copied bits I think are relevant from the sites I've been viewing but also given you the link if you want a longer read (sorry it's long).

Just a note about me test driving a different car at a different premises (both dealerships are not connected) doesn't seem to be an issue because I didn't actually see my car and the transaction was all done via email.

https://www.specialistautomotivefinance.org.uk/resources/distance-selling-dealerships.html/

Distance selling in dealerships

The Consumer Contracts Regulations give customers who buy goods from a dealer outright the right to change their mind and cancel an order within 14 days of receiving the vehicle. 

Cancellations and refunds

The time limits for sales contracts and order cancellations are as follows:

• The contract must be cancelled within 14 days after delivery of the vehicle.  The vehicle must then (depending on the dealer's terms) be made available for collection.
• A customer who decides to return the vehicle within these time limits is entitled to expect the full amount to be refunded within 14 days.

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https://autowebdesign.co.uk/blog/distance-selling-regulations-for-car-dealers#:~:text=In%20short%2C%20if%20a%20contract,the%20customer%20commits%20to%20buy.

 

“The legal definition of a distance sale means that if a customer commits to a purchase before physically seeing a vehicle, it is almost certainly a distance sale

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https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/distance-selling-regulations-a-thing-of-the-past/#:~:text=under%20the%20regulations.-,The%20regulations%20only%20apply%20to%20consumer%20contracts%2C%20not%20business%2Dto,other%20than%20at%20your%20premises.

 

 The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013 came into effect in June 2014.

The regulations only apply to consumer contracts, not business-to-business sales, and only apply to sales conducted at a distance, meaning those where the consumer has not been to your premises or payment to conclude the sale is made anywhere other than at your premises.

The regulations permit a consumer to cancel the sale for a full refund within 14 days, without the need for a fault to be present.

If, however, the correct paperwork regarding the cancellation rights is not given in writing before a sale, the consumer will be entitled to cancel the sale for any reason within one year and 14 days of the sale. Further, in the absence of the correct paperwork, there is no right for the dealer to charge for deductions and they will be liable to collect the vehicle. Essentially, a consumer could have free use of a vehicle for over a year, and the dealer would be obliged to take back the vehicle and provide a refund.

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https://www.lawgistics.co.uk/blog/legal_updates/distance-sales-getting-the-paperwork-right/

 

Whether you are offering Click & Collect or Click & Deliver, you need to know what paperwork to give in regard to distance sales.

Failure to give the correct paperwork will mean you give the consumer the right to return a vehicle for a refund (for no particular reason – there doesn’t have to be a fault) anytime in the next year. It will mean you may not be able to make a deduction for usage or damage, and worse, you may end up with a bigger loss if you have not made it clear that the consumer is liable for insuring the vehicle right up to the point of return. It will also mean that you find yourself having to collect the vehicle rather than being able to insist the consumer returns it to you.

In short, you fall foul of the law and make your life harder and more expensive if you fail to provide the correct paperwork and set out the terms of the distance sale.

 

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https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/forums/topic/pcp/

 

·        I am thinking of buying a new car. I have the cash to buy it, but the salesman says that if I agree to PCP the dealer contributes £4,000 so I should opt for that and then exercise my right to withdraw and pay the finance company off.

Are there any issues with that? What should I check?

Thanks

Yes, this can be done – depending on what your vehicle contract says.

Any PCP agreement comes with a 14-day right to cancel with no penalty. The finance company will then invoice you for the value of what was originally financed (not the value of the car), so you have to pay up straight away.

As the deposit contribution (which is basically a discount, although it’s preferable for the manufacturer to arrange it as a deposit contribution) is money you don’t have to pay before delivery, there’s no realistic way they can make you pay it afterwards. The only way they can try is if the vehicle contract specifically says that the deposit contribution is subject to maintaining the PCP for a period of time. In practical terms, this doesn’t usually happen.

Essentially, they are banking on most customers preferring to keep their money in the bank and not cancel the finance.

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https://www.autotraderinsight-blog.co.uk/auto-trader-insight-blog/distance-selling-guide

 

 

The Ultimate Guide to Distance Selling

The two methods of operating distance selling are click & collect, whereby a buyer purchases the vehicle and then travels to the retailer to pick up the vehicle, and home delivery where the vehicle is purchased and delivered to the buyer by the retailer.

In both instances the purchase has to made away from the retail premises, in accordance with current restrictions in England, and buyers will legally be entitled to a 14 day return period from when they take ownership of the vehicle. This is a legal obligation and must be explained to the buyer during the buying process.

 Trading standards expert Peter Stonely explained that these rights cannot be removed by a disclaimer and failure to communicate the 14 day right to cancel period, to a buyer through contract or on your website, will mean that they automatically have 12 months to cancel. He suggests that retailers should highlight the 14 day right to cancel on your website as well as sent to the buyer via email and/or post.

 

Overcoming the Fear of Returns

One of the risks of distance selling that concerned retailers the most was the likelihood of a customer rejecting the car. But both Nona and Sean revealed that, in their experience, this happens in very few cases. Having confidence in the vehicle you are selling, the transaction experience you are giving the customer, having a rudimentary understanding of distance selling and making consumers aware of their rights was key to successfully operating a remote selling process both now, at a time when it’s the only model available, and in the future when consumers will see buying this way as the normal.

Dissecting the Details of Distance Selling regulations

A third of retailers we polled that do not offer remote services did so because they were concerned about government guidelines and unsure of distance selling legislation. The full regulations can be found by clicking here but main thing retailers must abide by when it comes to distance selling is the 14 day cancellation period which, as previously stated, is a legal obligation and must me made clear to the buyer. So long as you abide by this you have the main element covered.

But whilst retailers cannot change the 14 day return period, they can include certain terms to make the return process easier for both the retailer and buyer. Nona Bowkis recommends that retailers create a robust set of returns terms and conditions to ensure an easy returns process for both the buyer and retailer. Within these terms Nona suggests that retailers set out how many miles can be covered within this period and what charges will apply should the vehicle be returned with excess mileage e.g. charging £1 a mile if a vehicle is returned with mileage exceeding the figure in the contract. The number of miles permitted to be covered will need to be considered reasonable but there is no pre-defined number. The condition that the vehicle must be in upon return must also be stipulated and Nona also suggests adding a clause as to who’s responsibility it is to deliver the returned vehicle to the forecourt i.e. the buyer must return the vehicle in the event they initiate a return. 

If a vehicle is returned you will be required to refund the buyer in full, if they have adhered to your returns policy. However, if the vehicle was purchased on finance then the retailer will need to liaise with the finance company to enable the refund of funds paid. Most finance companies will already have a facility for returns in such instances.

 

 

 

Aylesbury_Duck

Just send that to them if they refuse to accept your return, then.

screech_78

You can make a claim online using MCOL, however you’ll need to pay a 5% court fee. Given the value you’ll be claiming, this will be over £1.5k. 

I note universal credit has been mentioned so you can get help with the fee, however if you’re doing this then you can’t use MCOL. 

I think you’re jumping the gun a bit though. Wait for a response from the dealer. If nothing within say a week, you’ll need to send an LBA first. I would also seek proper legal advice if you’re planning on going down the court route as due to the amount, you’ll be liable for their costs if you lose. 

I’m another one who thinks there’s far more to this than meets the eye, but I’ll reserve judgement for now. 

Grumpy_chap

The OP's latest post ( which I won't quote because of the length of the post ) has located and conflated several points.

The car can be rejected if there are faults.  AIUI, in the case of the car, not every fault is grounds for rejection.  The faults have to be significant.

The order for the car can be cancelled under CCR (for any or no reason).  There can be a deduction for excess reduction of value.  AIUI, the notes about having not been given the rules about cancellation have the effect of extending the period in which the order can be cancelled, not eliminating the deduction for excess reduction in value.

The notes about securing an incentive for buying the car on finance and then settling the finance early but not needing to return the incentive are correct.  It is often suggested in these forums as a thing to do.  I do not believe that can be combined with rejection or cancellation of the car and still keep the incentive.  The OP appears to be suggesting that they wanted to:

• Order a car for £37k
• Take Dealer finance with £4k incentive
• Receive delivery of the car
• Cancel the finance, but retain the £4k discount against the price of the car
• Use the car for 3 days / 150 miles
• Cancel the order for the car
• Receive a full refund of the £37k
• Walk away £4k to the better

I don't think I need to explain why that simply would not be a viable thing to happen.


I think a good summary has been given a few posts upthread by @RefluentBeans

RefluentBeans said:

Realistically though - this is going to be s complex case - with the value of the OP driving for ‘less than 250 miles’ being taken into account.

More questions would include if the dealership offered a test drive booking service - in that case can the OP expect to have a full refund if they didn’t take up that offer? 

The OP needs to get what his claim is and what they’re claiming for and against in terms of legalisation. If they’re claiming for damages to the car that could be under CRA, and if successful a full refund, but the company can request to repair (as I understand for motor vehicles it is different to other goods), unless the fault is serious. If under the CCR, the claim has a better chance (in my non-lawyer opinion) of being successful, but the refund amount may be lower than a full refund. In addition, if the OP did test drive at an affiliated dealer then there may an argument to be made that the contract wasn’t a distance selling contract and these rights don’t apply. Currently it sounds like there is some mixing and matching of terminology and law, when the best arguments should be clear cut and simple to follow. This story is anything but simple and omissions at the start of the story do taint the rest of the story. 

It gives a number of questions that need to be answered for the OP to proceed:

1. Is the OP rejecting the car as "faulty"?
2. What are the faults?  AIUI, not every fault on a car gives grounds to reject the car  https://www.thecarexpert.co.uk/rejecting-a-car/#1-can-you-reject-your-car-for-any-fault-you-find
3. Has the OP signed for delivery of the car as undamaged?
4. Has the OP indicated to the supplying Dealer that there are faults with the car?
5. Alternative to rejecting the car as faulty, is the OP cancelling the order under CCR?
   
6. Was there a distance selling contract?  (I know the OP is adamant this is the case, but there is some vagueness on this and I am certain the Dealer will be looking at whether CCR applies.)
7. If the order is cancelled under CCR, the OP will have the refund reduced by the amount of the excess depreciation by testing over and above what testing could be done in a showroom / standard test drive.
8. If the OP signed receipt of the car as good and notified the Dealer of the "faults", it is possible the Dealer assesses the damage must have been caused by the OP and reduce the refund amount accordingly.  (This depends on the nature of the "faults" but the OP has been opaque as to what the "faults" are.)

I very much suspect that answers to the above will simply create further follow-on questions.

I fully agree with @Pinkshoes about the devaluation of the car being significant:

pinkshoes said:

But cancelling having done more than inspected it comes at a "reasonable deduction" for usage.

In a brand new car, this "reasonable" deduction is having another owner and a mileage, so you will be needing to have an amount in your head that you're happy to settle for.

(Otherwise, if you could get a full refund and just return a car and drive any mileage you like, then hire cars wouldn't have much of a business!)

You've still been somewhat evasive about the mileage you have done since owning the car which is causing suspicion and making it look dodgy!

So the question will be how much is the car now worth with 1 additional user and 30 to 600 miles on the clock? £5000 deduction?  £3000? You haven't said what the car is so it's hard to say.

There is a lot in having a brand new car registered to a first keeper, and driven 150 miles that is in excess of the level of inspection and testing that can be done in normal circumstances in showroom / test drive scenario.

I can also postulate (but disagree with) a counter argument that a normal demonstrator car is registered to a first keeper (the Dealership) and covers mileage before being sold on as "ex-demo".  The OP's car has been registered to first keeper and has covered some mileage so could similarly be sold on as "ex-demo".


After all this, the OP still seems to suggest that they will simply order another of the same car and has ignored the comments upthread as to why this may not be simple:

Grumpy_chap said:

• The current Dealer will almost certainly not accept a follow-on purchase order
• The OP may not be able to secure the same price from another Dealer as they secured for this order
• The finance that has been taken and cancelled will leave a trace on the OP's credit files and may impact the availability or rate of the next finance deal

Anyway, the OP keeps coming back round to the question "what to do if the Dealer does not respond?" and expresses a certain desire to follow a legal path / MCOL (if appropriate).

Given the OP apparently wrote to the Dealership on Wednesday and has had no response as yet, what I would do if there is still no response by lunchtime tomorrow (Friday) would be to phone the Dealership, try to speak with the individual that the cancellation / rejection (which?) e-mail was sent to and simply ask for confirmation that the message has been received. 
If the specific individual is not on shift, then ask to speak with the Dealer Principal.  
Having established that the message was received by the business, the OP can then ask for the indicative timeline for a response. 
If the business do not confirm that the messages was received, the OP can confirm the correct e-mail address, re-send the message and add a specific request for the receipt to be acknowledged.  
I would also send a follow-up copy of the communication by postal service and retain proof of posting.  Or use a tracked delivery service.

Before any effort along the legal path, the OP needs to ensure that the request has been effectively communicated to the business, and then exhaust the businesses compliant procedure, which may include an Ombudsman / ADR / manufacturer's process first.

Aylesbury_Duck

Being choosy about what should be declared has happened before.  I wonder if the insurer of this car knows of the accident OP failed to declare to the insurer of a previous car?  The justification gymnastics for that are interesting.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6366238/putting-in-a-claim/p1

screech_78

Aylesbury_Duck said:

Being choosy about what should be declared has happened before.  I wonder if the insurer of this car knows of the accident OP failed to declare to the insurer of a previous car?  The justification gymnastics for that are interesting.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6366238/putting-in-a-claim/p1

And again the OP is so sure they are correct and there is nothing untoward going on. 

Cheechee

Seriously, some people are so accusing.

I can't keep saying it, nothing untoward is going on, nothing murky or shady or anything else. Think it is probably time I 'flounce' off.  Not really sure I want to take advice from some people who clearly think something strange is happening here. And no, I'm not chucking my toys out of the pram, just realising this is probably not the right place for me.

I guess this will be one of those threads you never get to hear the outcome which was never my intention but I'm off to Google some more with a friendly wave to all of you, even the doubters.

But before I go, I must applaud posters for digging out old threads of mine, bit pointless really but if it makes you happy . . . 

Thanks for everyone's input

RefluentBeans

Cheechee said:

Seriously, some people are so accusing.

I can't keep saying it, nothing untoward is going on, nothing murky or shady or anything else. Think it is probably time I 'flounce' off.  Not really sure I want to take advice from some people who clearly think something strange is happening here. And no, I'm not chucking my toys out of the pram, just realising this is probably not the right place for me.

I guess this will be one of those threads you never get to hear the outcome which was never my intention but I'm off to Google some more with a friendly wave to all of you, even the doubters.

But before I go, I must applaud posters for digging out old threads of mine, bit pointless really but if it makes you happy . . . 

Thanks for everyone's input

The old posts add a lot of context. I think expecting a clear cut response when you were unwilling to contextualise the situation is kind of naive. This is a complex situation as it is, and relying on the facts you are willing to divulge will always make you look better than if you were to present all facts, warts and all. 

Like I said before - this forum is not a legal advice forum (I’m fairly sure that no legally qualified person would be willing to give legal advice on a public forum without getting all the facts). You can get a short appointment with a legal professional (in fact there are some law clinics who offer free advice from training students under the supervision of qualified professionals). It may be worth going and asking them, but giving them all the information that you haven’t been willing to give to us.

If this gets to court, the court will look at probabilities. The fact you seem to want to keep the £4k incentive is, to me, pretty damning. The fact you aren’t willing to let the dealership make the minor repairs is, to me, pretty damning. The fact you were driving the car up to the point you were told to stop, to me, pretty damning. The fact you haven’t been as responsive to questions (even a simple question like miles on the clock) is, to me, pretty damning. I can’t make a judgement on if the case will be successful. But there’s a lot of things that go against you, and my gut isn’t going that you are in the right here. You say nothing shady is going on; but I’ve only got your word for that, and you haven’t exactly been telling the whole truth throughout the story.

Good luck OP - hope it works out for you.