Cooling off period

BoGoF

Grumpy_chap said:

This is quite hard to follow and advise because of the withheld information.

Cheechee said:

Did you see and test drive a car at any Dealership?  It is quite possible that the supplying Dealer is checking test drive records through their chain and / or the wider manufacturer franchises.

Yes, I did test drive a car (different trim level tho) at a dealership near me but both dealerships are not part of the same chain. Surely test driving a different car from a different garage not connected to where I bought it from can't go against me, can it???

What is the brand of the Dealership where you took the test drive?
What is the brand of the Dealership from where you ordered the car?

It is possible that different brands are still the same group company.
I think the Dealership will try, with a brand new car purchase, to find any way that they can establish the CCR may not apply.

Cheechee said:

Is this the car you mentioned in your other thread?  Funded by pension drawdown.
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/6486837/cashing-in-private-pension-to-buy-a-car
It just seems odd that anyone buying a car as a properly considered purchase, as you clearly were by looking at the financing options in November, would select a car without any viewing / test drive.

This was an option I was considering in my other thread however I didn't go this route in the end, it was far too complicated.

In the other thread, you were concerned about the pension funds being in your account at the end of a UC assessment period.
It now seems you had £37k regardless of the pension.
Once you have the £37k back, you will need to declare this in your UC journal.

Good spot. All becomes clear now.

Cheechee

It now seems you had £37k regardless of the pension.

Nope, I didn't. A family member paid the finance  company. Like I said in one of my earlier posts, I wanted to clear the debt so this wouldn't slow down/impact the process of returning the car. It's a loan and will be paid back to the family member as soon as the car is returned/refunded. I will then buy another car on finance.

And also, nope, I'm not withholding any information.

Hope that's cleared that up.

I really just came for advice on what happens if the dealership doesn't reply, what would my next step be?

Can anyone actually answer this?

Aylesbury_Duck

I don't think anyone can, because there seems to be some strange aspects to this scenario.  The whole pension, UC, family member immediately paying the debt, etc. comes across as a little murky, even if it is all above board.

It sounds as if you've got yourself into a bit of a tangle by doing this, especially in the circumstances.

If pressed, I'd say that in the event of no reply, you'd be looking at a letter before action and then legal action if required.  Given the sum at stake and what might be tricky circumstances, I'd get proper legal advice if that comes to pass.  

Cheechee

Sorry, what is murky and what tangle have I got myself into?

It's very simple, 
I wanted a new car.
Considered cashing in pensions (too difficult).
Bought a car on finance.
Not happy with car and want to return within cooling off period.
Wanted to settle the finance so this wouldn't be a stumbling block.
Kind family member has loaned me money.
Money will be paid back when car refunded.
New car will be bought on finance.

What is murky about that and what tangle in what circumstances.

Hopefully someone will come along and answer a few questions I can't seem to get an answer to

What would my next steps be if I don't hear from the dealer?

Would I get court fees back if I start a claim but the dealer doesn't let it get that far?

Is money claims online any good?

Cheechee

Thanks for suggesting letter before action 

pinkshoes

Cheechee said:

I really just came for advice on what happens if the dealership doesn't reply, what would my next step be?

Can anyone actually answer this?

Given this is going to cost the dealership a LOT of money (a brand new car now has another owner, and some mileage on it) then the dealership will be looking for evidence to reject your return of the car, so they're going to take some time over this.

This issue is spending £37k on a car you've never seen, but it turns out you HAVE seen and test driven an almost identical car. The dealership will be no doubt speaking to their legal time to find out whether this therefore means it doesn't classify as a distance sale.

(e.g. there was a case a while back where someone rejected a sofa they'd bought online, but turns out they'd been to the store to see it which meant it wasn't a distance sale).

How many miles has the car done since you've had it?

A test drive would be around 5 to 10 miles, so I'm hoping you haven't done more than this, especially as you've stated aesthetical reasons for returning the car. 

If it went to court, then a court works on the balance of probabilities, so I'd say the dealership might have a reasonable case to argue some depreciation costs deducted from the refund. Is this something you'd be willing to negotiate with them?

Cheechee

The thing is I NEVER saw the car before it was delivered to me. I test drove a different spec car from a different dealership which is definitely not linked to the dealership I bought the car from. They didn't have what I wanted so I looked elsewhere. Although the cars might be almost identical, they are not the same. I have not been to the dealership I bought the car from. Your case about the sofa is different. Although the person bought online, they ordered from the same store they went to view the sofa from. I don't do that.

Some of the miles the car had was miles when the car was delivered to me. I'm no longer using the car. Incidentally, how many miles would be reasonable to have on the clock?

If I was ordered to pay depreciation costs by law then yes, I have no problem in doing so. I'm not trying to get money out of this for profit, just a car that is in pristine condition as a brand new car should be

RefluentBeans

Cheechee said:

Sorry, what is murky and what tangle have I got myself into?

It's very simple, 
I wanted a new car.
Considered cashing in pensions (too difficult).
Bought a car on finance.
Not happy with car and want to return within cooling off period.
Wanted to settle the finance so this wouldn't be a stumbling block.
Kind family member has loaned me money.
Money will be paid back when car refunded.
New car will be bought on finance.

What is murky about that and what tangle in what circumstances.

Hopefully someone will come along and answer a few questions I can't seem to get an answer to

What would my next steps be if I don't hear from the dealer?

Would I get court fees back if I start a claim but the dealer doesn't let it get that far?

Is money claims online any good?

It’s murky because it seems from reading this thread you wanted to take advantage of an incentive (great - that’s fine - and very money saving) but you had no intention of keeping the vehicle. You then paid off the debt as soon as possible (using someone else’s money) to avoid issues with returning the car. In addition there are now questions regarding a UC claim and not wanting to have certain money in your account so you could get benefits. All of which, taken together, seems that you bought the car in bad faith to get an incentive, paid off the debt (with someone else’s money) to make the process go as easy as possible, and looking at moving money around various accounts to hide from UC. 

If the dealership is not refunding you then I think the next step is going to be a small claim, but given the value it wouldn’t be the small claim track and rather it would be the multi track (for claims above £25k). This is a harder and slower process than the small claims track, as the cases are more complex. 

There’s going to be a few issues you need to think about.
1. Claiming under the CCR (the 14 day no-reason needed distant selling) does mean they can reduce the value of the refund based on excessive use (the threshold of use is normally what you would be able to do if you went to the dealership to buy the car - and to inspect the goods before purchase - for example a 30 minute test drive). Anything more than that is considered damages for which they can reduce the claim by. 

2. Claiming under the CCR generally means that the product should be able to be sold by the retailer for the same price you paid for it. For example, a tee shirt worn for 30 seconds can be sold by a retailer as the use is no different to what you’d expect to find in a brick and mortar store. However, your car now is second hand (it’ll have had your name on the log) so is worth less than you paid for it, potentially considerably. I’m not sure how the CCR’s can reconcile the differences, and I think a court would need to weigh in.
3. Collection fees may be charged (if claiming under the CCR’s and the terms state it) which further reduce the claim. 

4. If claiming under the CRA the car has to be majorly faulty. I think it’s unlikely that the car would be majorly faulty being factory fresh and in your possession for a few days. Thus any CRA claim I think would likely fail. 

Like others have said - going to court for a >£30k amount you should be seeking legal advice. And you should tell them everything, from start to finish, including the ‘non relevant’ details, as these details are often more important than you may think. 

Tucosalamanca

Cheechee said:

I wanted it to be in pristine condition and not have to be taken a couple of hours away to be fixed

Cheechee said:

just a car that is in pristine condition as a brand new car should be

How do you define pristine?

Cars are built within tolerances, I suspect that the perfect car is something of a unicorn.

Needing minor repairs or sorting things that were missed during PDI are also quite normal with a new car, no matter the price.

If you really wanted the perfect car, you would have done the legwork and not had a remote purchase delivered to your door.

Dealership being two hours away is laughable. I'd drive that far on a Saturday morning, just window shopping.
If I was looking to spend £37,000 I'd probably make several of those journeys, if not more!

There's something not quite right with this entire saga, very similar to a couple of other threads.
You don't happen to own a Toyota Yaris as well?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Cheechee said:

Yes, apologies if I’ve confused people with the word rejection

Hello OP

Long thread but just to chip in on this point specifically.

If you are looking to cancel because you changed your mind then the word reject becomes confusing, not just for us but for you stating your position.

To exercise your right to cancel you need to make a clear statement to the trader along the lines of

"I am writing to inform you that I am exercising my right to cancel the contract for xxx as per the The Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013"

With regards to a refund the trader may deduct an amount for diminished value for handling that is "beyond what is necessary to establish the nature, characteristics and functioning of the goods," 

The regs help somewhat by clarifying this as "handling is beyond ..... if, in particular, it goes beyond the sort of handling that might reasonably be allowed in a shop"

You could argue you can test drive a car but ultimately a £ figure on diminished value for a car is likely going to be something for a court to decide if you and the dealership can't meet at an agreement. 

To further complicate matters a deduction may only be imposed if the trader provided the correct information regarding the right to cancel, you'd have to view your paperwork on this one. 

You mention in the OP you "want to reject for various reasons" if any of them are because of a fault/issue with the car you may be better off rejecting (rather than cancelling, unless the dealer didn't give the required information regarding the right to cancel), because, whilst normally a full refund is due in the first 6 months where goods are rejected, motor vehicles are exempt from that full refund clause, however deduction when rejecting is for use rather than diminished value, given how quickly brand new cars lose value a deduction for use may put you in a better position with regards to a refund amount. 

Whilst our regs don't seem to make mention of it*, EU guidance on the matter state that the regs aren't intended to allow the consumer to reject over minor issues, what's minor with regards to a car and whether you may or may not reject is again probably something for a court to decide.

*Our regs actually state goods should be free from minor imperfections but when you are talking cars it's not really the same as a table with a chip on the corner. 

Long story short, be sure, when talking to the dealer, that you are using the correct wording, reject = problem with the car, cancel = change of mind