Failure to provide service to business - how do we proceed?

Cmdr_Bond

Grumpy_chap said:

This is a B2B issue, consumer rights do not apply.

The post is very confusing and, possibly, the use of A, B, C, D is making that more so, particularly the final part:

Cmdr_Bond said:

I've told (D) to try and obtain a copy of the relevant T&Cs direct from the provider.  I've attached what I believe to be the relevant sections below.

Is that the correct party (D)?
Who is the "provider" in that sentence?
You say to obtain the T's&C's but then attach some, so presumably they don't need to be obtained?

Can the order of events have some timescales added?

Do any of the parties B, C, D (but not your friend A) have actual names?  There may be people with experience of the same companies.

Who does A have a contract with?
What are the terms of that contract?  That is where any costs and obligations will be set out.

Thank you, it was late when I writing this.

Yes, that last paragraph should read I have instructed (A), not (D).  My apologies.

I have company names for B C and D, but wanted to keep everything vague for the time being so as not to prejudice any legal action.

Who does (A) have a contract with?  That's a very good question.

He agreed everything with (B), and (C) is supplying 2 of his sites.  The 3rd was supplied (matter of debate) by (D), and it is, to my knowledge, (C) and (D) that are directly billing him.

But apart from an email agreement with the broker (B), he has no written contracts - nothing has been emailed or posted!

sheramber

Cmdr_Bond said:

Grumpy_chap said:

This is a B2B issue, consumer rights do not apply.

The post is very confusing and, possibly, the use of A, B, C, D is making that more so, particularly the final part:

Cmdr_Bond said:

I've told (D) to try and obtain a copy of the relevant T&Cs direct from the provider.  I've attached what I believe to be the relevant sections below.

Is that the correct party (D)?
Who is the "provider" in that sentence?
You say to obtain the T's&C's but then attach some, so presumably they don't need to be obtained?

Can the order of events have some timescales added?

Do any of the parties B, C, D (but not your friend A) have actual names?  There may be people with experience of the same companies.

Who does A have a contract with?
What are the terms of that contract?  That is where any costs and obligations will be set out.

Thank you, it was late when I writing this.

Yes, that last paragraph should read I have instructed (A), not (D).  My apologies.

I have company names for B C and D, but wanted to keep everything vague for the time being so as not to prejudice any legal action.

Who does (A) have a contract with?  That's a very good question.

He agreed everything with (B), and (C) is supplying 2 of his sites.  The 3rd was supplied (matter of debate) by (D), and it is, to my knowledge, (C) and (D) that are directly billing him.

But apart from an email agreement with the broker (B), he has no written contracts - nothing has been emailed or posted!

Yiu can make up names  for B,C  and D, which could make it easier to understand.

Cmdr_Bond

BoGoF said:

Cmdr_Bond said:

PHK said:

That's why, when a technical advisor asks you to do something you do.

Indeed, but when it comes to taking apart a wall socket with a screwdriver, where does the liability lay if a non technical person, following instructions relayed down the phone by someone who doesn't know the physical layout and can't see it, opens the wrong socket and causes damage in the process?

Plugging and unplugging is one thing, taking a socket apart is another.  IMO.

HOWEVER. If it is meant to be user accessible, then I do understand the point.

You are not taking apart a socket, you are removing a cover plate and plugging into the master socket. Even as an individual customer of BT I have been asked to do this, 30 second job. 

I understand your point.

I've not had a BT supplied line in over 20 years (C&W, NTL, Virgin), and I've not needed to remove a cover plate for them, ever.  I'm not saying this isn't something I wouldn't have been expected to do, and I would've been happy to as I'm technically minded.

I wasn't present when this conversation took place, so I only have half the story.  I personally think it could've been handled better, but I think it could've also been explained better to (A).  However, at this point, his business had been without internet or phone for over 6 weeks!

I understand the point you make that this may be seen as an issue with regards to being uncooperative, but in the grand scheme of things (i.e. lack of written contracts and a product that I believe, but cannot prove, was mis-sold, and the fact he was without services for an extended period of time) I believe this is a minor issue.

I could be wrong however.

Alderbank

There are more options than just A, B, C or D.

All the major telecomms companies offer, in addition to domestic packages, a range of levels for business users. These each have different service level agreements including minimum guaranteed down times, technical support to premises, etc.

If your friend is technically challenged, as you say, perhaps he does not have the right SLA for his business needs?

Over 6 weeks communication downtime for a multi-site business does not sound like he will be in business for much longer.

ArbitraryRandom

Cmdr_Bond said:

1.  Firstly, thank you for the replies.

Yes, I'm aware thatv "consumer" rights don't work here, but I didn't know where else to start for advice.  And I have already advised him that he may need to seek proper legal advice on this.

The only place to start with B2B agreements is the contract (not just the general T&Cs, but the agreement signed by your friend) and check what it says about cancelling/if it's the same as above. 

From what you've posted, the key issue is point 7.2 (minimum term and notice required to terminate the contract) - was your friend within their minimum term and did they give notice? 

The terms you have posted seem to say the company are not required to provide the service within any specified time (I'd quest if this is an enforceable clause as generally when time is not of the essence the standard is 30 days), and are not responsible for the customer migrating to the service (they provide the service - not the set up)... 

Honestly that's a horrible set of terms, but you'd need professional advice as to if they're enforceable - I'd recommend seeing if there's a Legal Clinic near you (they offer free advice, sometimes from supervised law students or professionals donating some time): https://www.lawworks.org.uk/legal-advice-individuals/find-legal-advice-clinic-near-you 

They wouldn't be able to support you through the whole issue, but 30 mins should be enough time for them to give a view on if your friend has grounds to at least negotiate down the exit fee. Just make sure you take all the documentation you have. 

Grumpy_chap

Cmdr_Bond said:

Thank you, it was late when I writing this.

Yes, that last paragraph should read I have instructed (A), not (D).  My apologies.

I have company names for B C and D, but wanted to keep everything vague for the time being so as not to prejudice any legal action.

Who does (A) have a contract with?  That's a very good question.

He agreed everything with (B), and (C) is supplying 2 of his sites.  The 3rd was supplied (matter of debate) by (D), and it is, to my knowledge, (C) and (D) that are directly billing him.

But apart from an email agreement with the broker (B), he has no written contracts - nothing has been emailed or posted!

The real trouble with being vague is that it makes things very difficult to follow.

How large is the business?  The business has three operating sites, so that implies a large organisation that has equal bargaining power with the telecoms / internet service providers and access to legal advice.  The friend A should be using that internal legal advice to obtain accurate comment rather than uninformed comment from internet strangers.

Unless, of course, that is the wrong end of the stick caused by the extreme efforts to be vague.  Is it actually that the three sites are, in fact A's house plus A's sister's house plus A's son's house?

Do you see why "vague" does not help?

I also find it unfathomable that two separate telecoms providers would provide a business service without there being a signed contract in place.  That may not be physically signed, but possibly via a service such as docu-sign and then the electronically signed records are available via an online account portal (presumable one for C and one for D).

The next step is to get clarity and sight of the contracts and then for these to be fully reviewed as to the obligations and liabilities of both parties (to each contract) with regard to cancellation and non-performance.

Why is the broker not assisting?  I assume they charged a fee somehow for their service.

Cmdr_Bond

Alderbank said:

There are more options than just A, B, C or D.

All the major telecomms companies offer, in addition to domestic packages, a range of levels for business users. These each have different service level agreements including minimum guaranteed down times, technical support to premises, etc.

If your friend is technically challenged, as you say, perhaps he does not have the right SLA for his business needs?

Over 6 weeks communication downtime for a multi-site business does not sound like he will be in business for much longer.

A, B, C, and D refer to specific parties in this case.  Only 1 site was affected by the downtime.

No, he probably doesn't have an adequate service level agreement, but then, as yet, we've not actually seen any form of contract or agreement.

Cmdr_Bond

ArbitraryRandom said:

Cmdr_Bond said:

1.  Firstly, thank you for the replies.

Yes, I'm aware thatv "consumer" rights don't work here, but I didn't know where else to start for advice.  And I have already advised him that he may need to seek proper legal advice on this.

The only place to start with B2B agreements is the contract (not just the general T&Cs, but the agreement signed by your friend) and check what it says about cancelling/if it's the same as above. 

From what you've posted, the key issue is point 7.2 (minimum term and notice required to terminate the contract) - was your friend within their minimum term and did they give notice? 

The terms you have posted seem to say the company are not required to provide the service within any specified time (I'd quest if this is an enforceable clause as generally when time is not of the essence the standard is 30 days), and are not responsible for the customer migrating to the service (they provide the service - not the set up)... 

Honestly that's a horrible set of terms, but you'd need professional advice as to if they're enforceable - I'd recommend seeing if there's a Legal Clinic near you (they offer free advice, sometimes from supervised law students or professionals donating some time): https://www.lawworks.org.uk/legal-advice-individuals/find-legal-advice-clinic-near-you 

They wouldn't be able to support you through the whole issue, but 30 mins should be enough time for them to give a view on if your friend has grounds to at least negotiate down the exit fee. Just make sure you take all the documentation you have. 

Thank you.

Unfortunately we have no written copy of the contract.  

The service was agreed verbally over the phone with (B), and apart from 1 confirmation email from them, there's nothing from them, or (C) or (D) that constitutes a copy of the contract, let alone anything that required a wet ink or digital signature.

My aim in all of this is to get a concise timeline of events so he can take proper legal advice as this is clearly above me.  But I still need to start it off, otherwise it's going to go round in circles.

ArbitraryRandom

Cmdr_Bond said:

ArbitraryRandom said:

Cmdr_Bond said:

1.  Firstly, thank you for the replies.

Yes, I'm aware thatv "consumer" rights don't work here, but I didn't know where else to start for advice.  And I have already advised him that he may need to seek proper legal advice on this.

The only place to start with B2B agreements is the contract (not just the general T&Cs, but the agreement signed by your friend) and check what it says about cancelling/if it's the same as above. 

From what you've posted, the key issue is point 7.2 (minimum term and notice required to terminate the contract) - was your friend within their minimum term and did they give notice? 

The terms you have posted seem to say the company are not required to provide the service within any specified time (I'd quest if this is an enforceable clause as generally when time is not of the essence the standard is 30 days), and are not responsible for the customer migrating to the service (they provide the service - not the set up)... 

Honestly that's a horrible set of terms, but you'd need professional advice as to if they're enforceable - I'd recommend seeing if there's a Legal Clinic near you (they offer free advice, sometimes from supervised law students or professionals donating some time): https://www.lawworks.org.uk/legal-advice-individuals/find-legal-advice-clinic-near-you 

They wouldn't be able to support you through the whole issue, but 30 mins should be enough time for them to give a view on if your friend has grounds to at least negotiate down the exit fee. Just make sure you take all the documentation you have. 

Thank you.

Unfortunately we have no written copy of the contract.  

The service was agreed verbally over the phone with (B), and apart from 1 confirmation email from them, there's nothing from them, or (C) or (D) that constitutes a copy of the contract, let alone anything that required a wet ink or digital signature.

My aim in all of this is to get a concise timeline of events so he can take proper legal advice as this is clearly above me.  But I still need to start it off, otherwise it's going to go round in circles.

If they're trying to apply a charge based on early termination of the contract they at the least they need to be able to do is produce said contract and prove your friend agreed to it... 

Cmdr_Bond

Grumpy_chap said:

Cmdr_Bond said:

Thank you, it was late when I writing this.

Yes, that last paragraph should read I have instructed (A), not (D).  My apologies.

I have company names for B C and D, but wanted to keep everything vague for the time being so as not to prejudice any legal action.

Who does (A) have a contract with?  That's a very good question.

He agreed everything with (B), and (C) is supplying 2 of his sites.  The 3rd was supplied (matter of debate) by (D), and it is, to my knowledge, (C) and (D) that are directly billing him.

But apart from an email agreement with the broker (B), he has no written contracts - nothing has been emailed or posted!

The real trouble with being vague is that it makes things very difficult to follow.

How large is the business?  The business has three operating sites, so that implies a large organisation that has equal bargaining power with the telecoms / internet service providers and access to legal advice.  The friend A should be using that internal legal advice to obtain accurate comment rather than uninformed comment from internet strangers.

Unless, of course, that is the wrong end of the stick caused by the extreme efforts to be vague.  Is it actually that the three sites are, in fact A's house plus A's sister's house plus A's son's house?

Do you see why "vague" does not help?

I also find it unfathomable that two separate telecoms providers would provide a business service without there being a signed contract in place.  That may not be physically signed, but possibly via a service such as docu-sign and then the electronically signed records are available via an online account portal (presumable one for C and one for D).

The next step is to get clarity and sight of the contracts and then for these to be fully reviewed as to the obligations and liabilities of both parties (to each contract) with regard to cancellation and non-performance.

Why is the broker not assisting?  I assume they charged a fee somehow for their service.

It's a small business with 3 operating sites, but (A) and his wife oversee the whole operation.  There are no other managers, no corporate, etc.  But it's NOT residential sites.

Clarity and sight of contracts is something I've asked for.

The broker gets commission, but didn't charge A few