Failure to provide service to business - how do we proceed?

Cmdr_Bond

My friend (A), runs a business with multiple sites.  He's not a native English speaker, neither are his staff.  Also neither he or his staff are technically minded.

(A) received a cold call from a broker (B), and agreed to new broadband/phone contracts with provider (C).

On 1 site, (C) was unable to provide a fibre service.  As (C) no longer offered new copper installs due to the upcoming PSTN switchoff, (B) arranged a new contract with provider (D).

(D) sent out a new router, but no welcome letter or instructions, bar the manufacturers instructions packaged with the router.

2-3 weeks later, (D) started the switch, and (A) lost all his internet and phone lines.

About 1 week later, an engineer turned up, completely unexpectedly.  (A) was not on site, but was phoned by his staff.  After a brief conversation, which involved much confusion, the engineer took some photos of current setup, and left.

After many phone calls and several hours on hold over the next couple of weeks, (D) arranged a new engineer visit, and this took place nearly 2 months after agreeing the contract.

The BT Openreach engineer installed a new copper connection and told (A) it would take up to 24 hours to stabilise.

But it never did.  On the rare occasion the internet worked, the download speed was abysmal - less than 1mbps.  Also, the quality of voice calls was also really bad.

Over the next 2-3 weeks many more calls were made to customer services, and a new router was dispatched.  But that didn't fix anything.  At one point, while troubleshooting over the phone, after unplugging/replugging various items, (A) was asked to take a screwdriver to the master phone socket.  (A) rightly refused to do this as he's not an engineer.

That was the last straw, and after 2 months of trying to run a customer, business without phones and internet, (A) decided to switch to a completely different provider without using (B).

At no point has (A) received ANY contractual documents from either (B) or (D)

(D) are now demanding that (A) pay over £1,000 as an early cancellation fee, despite the fact that they never provided the service they were charging for.

I've checked online, and I've found some terms and condition, that I believe to be relevant.

Where does (A) stand? 

Can he cite (D) for breach of contract?  
Can he claim/sue for loss of earnings?

I've told (D) to try and obtain a copy of the relevant T&Cs direct from the provider.  I've attached what I believe to be the relevant sections below.

PHK

This will have been a business contract and so not really relevant to Consumer Rights. Your friend's business should contact it's legal advisor.

 

RefluentBeans

Agree with PHK - consumer rights don’t play here as it’s a business to business (B2B) contract which the Consumer Rights Act doesn’t have jurisdiction over. 

There will be other governing law, but you’ll need to find a forum that specialises in that, and from my understanding these contracts are often very complex and it may be worthwhile to speak to actual legal counsel to get their takes on it.

Plus ‘asking for a friend’ posts tend to not be great as any information you have has been passed on, and may be missing small but crucial details which can change the advice given. 

Good luck to your friend - hope they manage to get it sorted. 

Jonboy_1984

Agreed with the others on needing business advice but one bit stands out:

“ At one point, while troubleshooting over the phone, after unplugging/replugging various items, (A) was asked to take a screwdriver to the master phone socket.  (A) rightly refused to do this as he's not an engineer”

That was frankly a wrong decision, the master phone socket has an extra socket inside, designed to be easily customer/user accessible for testing precisely for these type of scenarios. Testing in this way helps prove if the issue is on the incoming line (which is BT openreaches problem) or something to do with the internal wiring which would need a third party phone engineer. This may well be seen as unreasonable in trying to sort the issues and contribute towards a failure to mitigate costs in any future action.

Cmdr_Bond

1.  Firstly, thank you for the replies.

Yes, I'm aware thatv "consumer" rights don't work here, but I didn't know where else to start for advice.  And I have already advised him that he may need to seek proper legal advice on this.

2. @RefluentBeans,I agree about the "asking for a friend" bit.  I spent a good few hours last night acting like Judge Judy trying to pry the relevant details out from what he wanted to tell me.

3. @Jonboy_1984, I understand what you're saying.  However, I don't think this was ever properlyv explained.  He's not a techy person.

I am, and while personally I would have had no issue opening the socket myself, I didn't know it was MEANT to be user accessible.

PHK

That's why, when a technical advisor asks you to do something you do.

user1977

Cmdr_Bond said:

Yes, I'm aware thatv "consumer" rights don't work here, but I didn't know where else to start for advice.  And I have already advised him that he may need to seek proper legal advice on this.

Where does your friend's business normally get its legal advice from? If it's large enough to be operating from multiple sites then presumably other issues have come up...

Cmdr_Bond

PHK said:

That's why, when a technical advisor asks you to do something you do.

Indeed, but when it comes to taking apart a wall socket with a screwdriver, where does the liability lay if a non technical person, following instructions relayed down the phone by someone who doesn't know the physical layout and can't see it, opens the wrong socket and causes damage in the process?

Plugging and unplugging is one thing, taking a socket apart is another.  IMO.

HOWEVER. If it is meant to be user accessible, then I do understand the point.

Cmdr_Bond

user1977 said:

Cmdr_Bond said:

Yes, I'm aware thatv "consumer" rights don't work here, but I didn't know where else to start for advice.  And I have already advised him that he may need to seek proper legal advice on this.

Where does your friend's business normally get its legal advice from? If it's large enough to be operating from multiple sites then presumably other issues have come up...

To my knowledge, he doesn't.

He had one issue where he was taken to small claims by a customer.  I assisted with writing the responses, nothing more, and he won that case.

But it's not a big operation.  3 sites, but only a handful of staff.

Grumpy_chap

This is a B2B issue, consumer rights do not apply.

The post is very confusing and, possibly, the use of A, B, C, D is making that more so, particularly the final part:

Cmdr_Bond said:

I've told (D) to try and obtain a copy of the relevant T&Cs direct from the provider.  I've attached what I believe to be the relevant sections below.

Is that the correct party (D)?
Who is the "provider" in that sentence?
You say to obtain the T's&C's but then attach some, so presumably they don't need to be obtained?

Can the order of events have some timescales added?

Do any of the parties B, C, D (but not your friend A) have actual names?  There may be people with experience of the same companies.

Who does A have a contract with?
What are the terms of that contract?  That is where any costs and obligations will be set out.

BoGoF

Cmdr_Bond said:

PHK said:

That's why, when a technical advisor asks you to do something you do.

Indeed, but when it comes to taking apart a wall socket with a screwdriver, where does the liability lay if a non technical person, following instructions relayed down the phone by someone who doesn't know the physical layout and can't see it, opens the wrong socket and causes damage in the process?

Plugging and unplugging is one thing, taking a socket apart is another.  IMO.

HOWEVER. If it is meant to be user accessible, then I do understand the point.

You are not taking apart a socket, you are removing a cover plate and plugging into the master socket. Even as an individual customer of BT I have been asked to do this, 30 second job.