RTS switch off Economy 7

QrizB

Agreed, that's five-terminal Horstmann "Multi-rate Meter Series S" which seems to be a fairly uncommon SSE model. It has a 20-year certification life per the table currently at this link.

There's a clearer photo of one in this thread (in this case, with only four terminals connected).

ThisAndThat2024 said:

3. My meter was installed in 2007, and Octopus tell me it's 'licensed' for use until 2028, and that I can't use it beyond this date. Is this correct? Could I continue to use it if it remains functional?

According to the sticker, it was installed in 2009, although the vital digit of the date of manufacture is hidden behind the blue seal. This won't change the expiry date of its certification.

ThisAndThat2024

Dear mmmmikey, Spoonie_Turtle, and Gery1,

Thank you very much indeed for your responses.
I feel reassured, having been quite concerned about the eventual long-wave and 3G switch-offs.

Best wishes, S.

Gerry1

@ThisAndThat2024 There's a great deal of duff RTS information and scaremongering out there.  Even Octopus haven't a clue, wrongly claiming that R4LW will cease broadcasting at the end of March 2024.

https://octopus.energy/help-and-faqs/articles/radio-teleswitch-service-rts/

May people imagine that RTS works like a car's key fob (one command to open, another command to lock) but it doesn't.  It's more like a clock radio, boiler timer or digital watch with a couple of daily alarms.

If a storm demolished all the R4LW masts you probably wouldn't notice a thing, your E7 would Keep Calm and Carry On regardless.  A few people with unusual configurations (e.g. Weathercall, where the start time changes when there's a cold snap) might notice if their hours remained on the default, but no-one is likely to boil or freeze because their E7 circuits got stuck when the music stopped.

ThisAndThat2024

Thank you very much for your explanation and reassurance, Gerry1.

(I'll be returning with various E7 queries, in due course!)

Best regards, S.

Teej996

I'm completely stuck with this one. I help manage a portfolio of properties including some larger blocks of apartments. The meters are all kept in a single meter cupboard with a wide variety of meters which I'm still trying to work out which ones use RTS and which ones don't. There is just one RTS device in there used by multiple meters but all the cables are concealed, so I can't find out by tracing the cables. It sounds like several will need to be replaced but obviously they are all a mix of suppliers and any previous attempts at fitting smart meters has been unsuccessful due to signal issues. 
Is there any way I can get someone to check them all at once as it's going to be absolute chaos if we need each one done on an individual basis.

Gerry1

Teej996 said:

There is just one RTS device in there used by multiple meters but all the cables are concealed, so I can't find out by tracing the cables.

Are you sure about that?  I'd have thought it was very unlikely.  Sharing RTS units could cause problems if the supplies were on different phases, and isolating the RTS unit's supply would affect the other meters.

I'm not convinced it's even your problem.  You may wish to advise the occupiers to contact you if their supplier needs access to the meter cupboard when their meter needs to be changed.  It's unlikely that all the relevant meters can be replaced at the same time.

What may well be your problem is that the cables are concealed.  This probably breaches the suppliers' Ts&Cs and would conceal any attempts at meter tampering.  It would also conceal or impede investigation of any other problems such as smoke emitted from an overheating loose connection.

Ildhund

ThatTeej996 said:

The meters are all kept in a single meter cupboard with a wide variety of meters which I'm still trying to work out which ones use RTS and which ones don't. There is just one RTS device in there used by multiple meters but all the cables are concealed, so I can't find out by tracing the cables. It sounds like several will need to be replaced but obviously they are all a mix of suppliers and any previous attempts at fitting smart meters has been unsuccessful due to signal issues. ...

This sounds like an absolute nightmare, and I've no idea how to unravel it. Apartment blocks are often BNOs - is this the case for yours? If so, the situation is different.

For a start, the only common factor is the DNO, so they may be able to do some coordination. You say the cables are all concealed; even so, they have to be accessible: for the DNO as far as the service head(s), for the individual suppliers to and from the meters and for you (or your electrician) as the property owner for anything beyond that. DNOs are variously helpful, so you may be lucky. Who is yours?

You didn't mention gas - that doubles your trouble if it's involved. A smart gas meter has to be linked to a smart electricity meter ...
It should be possible to solve both the WAN signal problem and the inevitable HAN problem, too, with perhaps an AltHAN solution for the whole building.

I'd start by finding which supplier is responsible for each meter and making a careful note of MPAN, (MPRN), MSNs and supplier for each apartment. It's not unlikely that new meters in the area are installed by the same contractor (e.g. SMS) on behalf of the various suppliers. If you can identify the 'usual' contractor, you may find them helpful and be able to work out a way of doing the whole building in one go on behalf of the various suppliers. Some residents will undoubtedly moan, but I'm sure you could find a way of presenting them with a fait accompli.

Scot_39

Teej996 said:

I'm completely stuck with this one. I help manage a portfolio of properties including some larger blocks of apartments. The meters are all kept in a single meter cupboard with a wide variety of meters which I'm still trying to work out which ones use RTS and which ones don't. There is just one RTS device in there used by multiple meters but all the cables are concealed, so I can't find out by tracing the cables. It sounds like several will need to be replaced but obviously they are all a mix of suppliers and any previous attempts at fitting smart meters has been unsuccessful due to signal issues. 
Is there any way I can get someone to check them all at once as it's going to be absolute chaos if we need each one done on an individual basis.

Are you sure space and complexity werent issues for smart fitters walking away.

If you cannot follow wiring they might not have been able to identify correct fuses for their supply for instance.

Likely multiple street level feeds if not so big as to need own distribution system from a higher voltage level feed.  But then I've only seen tenement type cabinets (for 6-8 flats)  - but have seen large offices (for 100s)  andcso nog sure whag happens in larger blocks and industrial sites with own much higher power needs and distribution systems too.


It's certainlh possible one rts could be used just to provide a low voltage switch signal to multiple meters and / or contactors for restricted feeds.  The power doesn't have to flow through it if only a timer.


In simple metering terms though 
A rts system like a mechanical timer / switch - can be used to control analogue or early digital dual register meter tariff times and/or to switch power on off on time restricted circuits - sometines though they feed secondary single rate meters for off peak. 

My rts was actually a dual circuit feed dual meter device combined.  There are many permutations even domestically.  In a larger block - don't know to say.


A smart meter however controls its own timing for tariffs. And if need restricted circuits it's own ALCS switching - many modern e7 installs rely on device timers not meter switching.  So fused incoming supply, tail to meter (one per phase/meter) , meter output to cu tail isolator,  isolator to cu tail (24/7 live and restricted if reqd)  etc.

Meaning if possible to simply replace one on one - any old link to rts connections would have to be disconnected or made / left safe per meter

However space for often larger meters - with new thicker tails and isolator switches-  likely fused protection -  in flats -  to CU tails (i needed both when my twin ouput rts was replaced by digital in a simple domestic install)  may be an issue.

And splitting if needed to give meter fitters access - may also possibly need a higher street amperage than some combined older hybrid feeds allow  - say 80a per meter -a  dno level decision afaik.

If that means splitting cabinets moving some for space - so moving fuses and incoming cables = DNO 

Suspect you need a far better idea of likely impact - of many meters being changed and a proper inspection - probably from DNO level or equivalent if not a normal grid feed (e.g. local energy network)

trust.no.1

Hi Everyone,

I believe my setup is similar to ThisAndThat2024 who posted in January. I live in a flat with storage heaters and an immersion water heater. Looking at the communal meter cabinet I'm the only remaining smart meter refusenik on my floor.

My meter is a Horstmann Multi-Rate Series S. I've attached a picture with my personal details redacted. It does not appear to be attached to anything labelled RTS and the connections and boxes to the other meters (all smart) in the cabinet appear identical.

I've received a letter from my energy supplier. It advises that my meter needs replacing and that the RTS system is due to be switched off in June 2025 and that I could be adversely impacted (I'm paraphasing here). The letter does not actually state that my meter uses the RTS network.

I've been reading this very informative thread. Thanks to all the contributors. Given that my meter appears the same as ThisAdThat2024 - can I similarly rest assured that there won't be Armageddon come June? The immerson heater does not appear to be driven by the meter - it has its own timer switch which turns it on and off at preset times within the off-peak period. The storage heater does appear to be controlled by the meter - it comes on automatically at the start of the off-peak and switches off at the end. The meter's peak/off-peak switches do appear to have drifted my around 6 minutes over the last year- the off peak now starts at 00:21GMT rather than 00:15GMT. This seems to match the assertion in the thread that it uses an in-built timer rather than the RTS network.

The certification sticker on the meter states 11/07 and the installation date states 08/07/08.

Based on this all - can I safely assume that my meter does not need to be changed until around 2027? And that other than the slight timer drift (which actually is not a bad thing as the off-peak starts later ) that I can leave things the way they are?

trust.no.1

trust.no.1 said:

Hi Everyone,

I believe my setup is similar to ThisAndThat2024 who posted in January. I live in a flat with storage heaters and an immersion water heater. Looking at the communal meter cabinet I'm the only remaining smart meter refusenik on my floor.

My meter is a Horstmann Multi-Rate Series S. I've attached a picture with my personal details redacted. It does not appear to be attached to anything labelled RTS and the connections and boxes to the other meters (all smart) in the cabinet appear identical.

I've received a letter from my energy supplier. It advises that my meter needs replacing and that the RTS system is due to be switched off in June 2025 and that I could be adversely impacted (I'm paraphasing here). The letter does not actually state that my meter uses the RTS network.

I've been reading this very informative thread. Thanks to all the contributors. Given that my meter appears the same as ThisAdThat2024 - can I similarly rest assured that there won't be Armageddon come June? The immerson heater does not appear to be driven by the meter - it has its own timer switch which turns it on and off at preset times within the off-peak period. The storage heater does appear to be controlled by the meter - it comes on automatically at the start of the off-peak and switches off at the end. The meter's peak/off-peak switches do appear to have drifted my around 6 minutes over the last year- the off peak now starts at 00:21GMT rather than 00:15GMT. This seems to match the assertion in the thread that it uses an in-built timer rather than the RTS network.

The certification sticker on the meter states 11/07 and the installation date states 08/07/08.

Based on this all - can I safely assume that my meter does not need to be changed until around 2027? And that other than the slight timer drift (which actually is not a bad thing as the off-peak starts later ) that I can leave things the way they are?

Hi again Everyone. I emailed my Energy supplier with the serial of the meter and asked them wheher it would be impacted by the RTS switch-off. They responded within 30 minutes and said that it would and offered me the opportunity to change the meter.

I would have thought that the Energy supplier would be authoritative on whether the meter would be impacted but I'm not sure they have got his right. For all the other meters in the cupboard the existing connections to the legacy meter have simiply been plugged into the smart meter. Also I cannot see any equipment whatsover that it labelled RTS.

At the end of the day I know I will eventually have to get the meter replaced - whether now or whether it goes end of life.  Is it possible my Energy supplier is mistken as to whether this meter will be impacted by the RTS switch off?