Xmas Day Lunch cancellation. Refund rights?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Emmia said:

RefluentBeans said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

When do you get a exclusive member of staff during dining? The staff are there any way. 

I couldn't see their Christmas price, kind of shows the point, they charge a premium because it's Christmas, the extra food and staff is likely less than the extra £48, basic supply and demand, higher prices at a peak period such as Christmas Day. 

I'm not saying it's impossible the meal is at cost, but I doubt it, most places are aiming for 65% GP (before VAT IIRC) which allows them to cover their costs and make a profit, add in the premium for Christmas Day and most places are making on the food regardless of paying the staff extra, whilst noting it's often a set menu reducing impact on the kitchen possibly reducing the volume of staff there that day.

We'll have to agree to disagree but until the OP asks the hotel whether they'd like to retain costs or loss of profits, no one will know    

The fact that a table cancelled means that staff can’t be reallocated. They can absolutely charge overhead costs, especially staffing costs. 

Christmas is like a wedding - people expect it to be perfect and perfect costs money. If people don’t like that, they do have the option of cooking themselves. Unfortunately the OP breached the contract, and that has a cost. Personally I’d give them £10 refund to make them go away. Asking for breakdowns of costs is something that businesses won’t give out, and nor should they have to, unless it goes to court. 

Suppose the OP was cooking Christmas dinner at home, and the same situation arose. Would they expect the supermarket they had purchased everything from to refund the turkey, nibbles, vegetables, etc., that they decided they weren't in the mood to cook or eat on Christmas day due to the MIL's illness? 

There are fixed costs for the hotel - if the table hadn't been booked (or cancelled in good time) then perhaps the hotel might have used fewer serving staff perhaps a smaller turkey would have been purchased, etc.

Still, by the time 4 of those places were cancelled, the turkey would (probably) have been in the oven, the veg peeled, the waiting staff on their way to work... Also, one turkey of the size a commercial restaurant may purchase would feed more than 5 people, so the turkey is getting roasted regardless of whether the meals were cancelled. There is no guarantee that the restaurant can sell cold turkey the following day (they may not be open). 

Nobody is saying the hotel shouldn’t have their costs covered but the ordinary position in contract law is for the party who breaches the contract to pay either costs or loss of profit, not both.

If profit is 51% or more you claim that, if costs are 51% or more you claim that instead.

RefluentBeans

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

RefluentBeans said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

When do you get a exclusive member of staff during dining? The staff are there any way. 

I couldn't see their Christmas price, kind of shows the point, they charge a premium because it's Christmas, the extra food and staff is likely less than the extra £48, basic supply and demand, higher prices at a peak period such as Christmas Day. 

I'm not saying it's impossible the meal is at cost, but I doubt it, most places are aiming for 65% GP (before VAT IIRC) which allows them to cover their costs and make a profit, add in the premium for Christmas Day and most places are making on the food regardless of paying the staff extra, whilst noting it's often a set menu reducing impact on the kitchen possibly reducing the volume of staff there that day.

We'll have to agree to disagree but until the OP asks the hotel whether they'd like to retain costs or loss of profits, no one will know    

The fact that a table cancelled means that staff can’t be reallocated. They can absolutely charge overhead costs, especially staffing costs. 

Christmas is like a wedding - people expect it to be perfect and perfect costs money. If people don’t like that, they do have the option of cooking themselves. Unfortunately the OP breached the contract, and that has a cost. Personally I’d give them £10 refund to make them go away. Asking for breakdowns of costs is something that businesses won’t give out, and nor should they have to, unless it goes to court. 

You’re missing the point that OP didn’t have their own chef and waiter, obviously enough staff is hired to cover bookings but one table cancelling doesn’t mean staff were sitting around twiddling their thumbs. 

If one waiter covers 5 tables and the place has an empty table they still need a waiter. 

But those costs are still realised by the company, and will be incorporated into the cost of the business. They should pay towards that overhead cost as there is no chance to minimise the cost of that when they cancel the day of. Staffing costs are allowed to be taken into consideration. 

Ultimately the company shouldn’t be out of pocket for what is effectively a change of heart. The unfortunate circumstances does not negate that, and anything more is a gesture of goodwill. 

You clearly disagree, but the regs clearly state that staffing costs can be included as long as they are mitigated. Cancelling on the day of means they can’t do much to mitigate those losses. 

RefluentBeans

Emmia said:

RefluentBeans said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

When do you get a exclusive member of staff during dining? The staff are there any way. 

I couldn't see their Christmas price, kind of shows the point, they charge a premium because it's Christmas, the extra food and staff is likely less than the extra £48, basic supply and demand, higher prices at a peak period such as Christmas Day. 

I'm not saying it's impossible the meal is at cost, but I doubt it, most places are aiming for 65% GP (before VAT IIRC) which allows them to cover their costs and make a profit, add in the premium for Christmas Day and most places are making on the food regardless of paying the staff extra, whilst noting it's often a set menu reducing impact on the kitchen possibly reducing the volume of staff there that day.

We'll have to agree to disagree but until the OP asks the hotel whether they'd like to retain costs or loss of profits, no one will know    

The fact that a table cancelled means that staff can’t be reallocated. They can absolutely charge overhead costs, especially staffing costs. 

Christmas is like a wedding - people expect it to be perfect and perfect costs money. If people don’t like that, they do have the option of cooking themselves. Unfortunately the OP breached the contract, and that has a cost. Personally I’d give them £10 refund to make them go away. Asking for breakdowns of costs is something that businesses won’t give out, and nor should they have to, unless it goes to court. 

Suppose the OP was cooking Christmas dinner at home, and the same situation arose. Would they expect the supermarket they had purchased everything from to refund the turkey, nibbles, vegetables, etc., that they decided they weren't in the mood to cook or eat on Christmas day due to the MIL's illness? 

There are fixed costs for the hotel - if the table hadn't been booked (or cancelled in good time) then perhaps the hotel might have used fewer serving staff perhaps a smaller turkey would have been purchased, etc.

Still, by the time 4 of those places were cancelled, the turkey would (probably) have been in the oven, the veg peeled, the waiting staff on their way to work... Also, one turkey of the size a commercial restaurant may purchase would feed more than 5 people, so the turkey is getting roasted regardless of whether the meals were cancelled. There is no guarantee that the restaurant can sell cold turkey the following day (they may not be open). 

Exactly this - they could argue some money back from the person who cancelled the day before but everyone who cancelled the day of is, in my opinion, just going to have to lump it. Not fair for businesses to absorb costs they can’t possibly minimise - if that’s the case should restaurants overbook on Christmas and hope people don’t turn up? ‘Sorry guys - we gave your table to someone else - we really thought someone would cancel their table last minute…’ 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

RefluentBeans said:

You clearly disagree, but the regs clearly state that staffing costs can be included as long as they are mitigated. Cancelling on the day of means they can’t do much to mitigate those losses. 

I'm unsure what regs you are referring to, can you quote them?

sheramber

The cost of the food is only one part of the expense.

The meal  would be costed to cover food, but aa share of all business/running  costs e.g share of staff costs, share of electricty, heating etc.

The overall profit from a meal is not just the profit of the price of the ingredients.

Hoenir

sheramber said:

The cost of the food is only one part of the expense.

The meal  would be costed to cover food, but aa share of all business/running  costs e.g share of staff costs, share of electricty, heating etc.

The overall profit from a meal is not just the profit of the price of the ingredients.

A business doesn't open one day a year either. Some days it will operate at a loss. Too simplistic to talk about profit in terms of one meal. Only at the financial year will the profit, if any, will be known. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Hoenir said:

sheramber said:

The cost of the food is only one part of the expense.

The meal  would be costed to cover food, but aa share of all business/running  costs e.g share of staff costs, share of electricty, heating etc.

The overall profit from a meal is not just the profit of the price of the ingredients.

A business doesn't open one day a year either. Some days it will operate at a loss. Too simplistic to talk about profit in terms of one meal. Only at the financial year will the profit, if any, will be known. 

Costs/profit relate to the contract, not the day, month, year, decade, otherwise it would be silly. 

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Hoenir said:

sheramber said:

The cost of the food is only one part of the expense.

The meal  would be costed to cover food, but aa share of all business/running  costs e.g share of staff costs, share of electricty, heating etc.

The overall profit from a meal is not just the profit of the price of the ingredients.

A business doesn't open one day a year either. Some days it will operate at a loss. Too simplistic to talk about profit in terms of one meal. Only at the financial year will the profit, if any, will be known. 

Costs/profit relate to the contract, not the day, month, year, decade, otherwise it would be silly. 

Not necessarily.
In the case of a restaurant, there has to be some balancing across the whole customer base for the day or other appropriate time period.
Otherwise, the first customer of the year would have a prohibitive bill as they need to foot the entre bill for the rent of the building the chef and the first waiter.
The second customer would be a bargain as they would only need to pay the extra costs for the extra table and chair and their own food, but nothing extra for the venue rent, chef, waiter.
Then customer ten (or whatever) would need to pay for the second chef and waiter.
But customer 11 gets a bargain again.
Obviously, the pricing for a restaurant cannot work like that.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Grumpy_chap said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Hoenir said:

sheramber said:

The cost of the food is only one part of the expense.

The meal  would be costed to cover food, but aa share of all business/running  costs e.g share of staff costs, share of electricty, heating etc.

The overall profit from a meal is not just the profit of the price of the ingredients.

A business doesn't open one day a year either. Some days it will operate at a loss. Too simplistic to talk about profit in terms of one meal. Only at the financial year will the profit, if any, will be known. 

Costs/profit relate to the contract, not the day, month, year, decade, otherwise it would be silly. 

Not necessarily.
In the case of a restaurant, there has to be some balancing across the whole customer base for the day or other appropriate time period.
Otherwise, the first customer of the year would have a prohibitive bill as they need to foot the entre bill for the rent of the building the chef and the first waiter.
The second customer would be a bargain as they would only need to pay the extra costs for the extra table and chair and their own food, but nothing extra for the venue rent, chef, waiter.
Then customer ten (or whatever) would need to pay for the second chef and waiter.
But customer 11 gets a bargain again.
Obviously, the pricing for a restaurant cannot work like that.

That’s not how it works, like any other business they look at the cost of buying the product (food) and then apply a margin that results in profit, as above it’s typically around 65% GP for restaurants.

Cost/profit relates to the contract, not that on Tuesday 3 weeks ago no one come in to eat so business is down….. 

Hoenir

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Hoenir said:

sheramber said:

The cost of the food is only one part of the expense.

The meal  would be costed to cover food, but aa share of all business/running  costs e.g share of staff costs, share of electricty, heating etc.

The overall profit from a meal is not just the profit of the price of the ingredients.

A business doesn't open one day a year either. Some days it will operate at a loss. Too simplistic to talk about profit in terms of one meal. Only at the financial year will the profit, if any, will be known. 

Costs/profit relate to the contract, not the day, month, year, decade, otherwise it would be silly. 

Attempting to run a business in such a manner would be beyond silly.