Xmas Day Lunch cancellation. Refund rights?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Grumpy_chap said:

It is quite possible that the "net cost" of the meal on Christmas Day is equal to the amount charged per head (£135).  

If this was £20 a head sure but £675 to feed 5 people would suggest a profit element likely exists. 

Grumpy_chap

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Grumpy_chap said:

It is quite possible that the "net cost" of the meal on Christmas Day is equal to the amount charged per head (£135).  

If this was £20 a head sure but £675 to feed 5 people would suggest a profit element likely exists. 

You know that and I know that.
We also both know that a large business that is part of a chain of businesses will be able to have creative accounting that shows the profit attached to the base cost of the meal is zero.  You need to consider how they will show the accounting for "centralised group functions" like procurement, HR, training and also the apportionment of outsourced functions such as cleaning...

born_again

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Grumpy_chap said:

It is quite possible that the "net cost" of the meal on Christmas Day is equal to the amount charged per head (£135).  

If this was £20 a head sure but £675 to feed 5 people would suggest a profit element likely exists. 

Don't forget staff wages.
Christmas day, triple time so at least £30 per staff member.

RefluentBeans

Im glad you think you can do Christmas dinner at £20 a head. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

RefluentBeans said:

Im glad you think you can do Christmas dinner at £20 a head. 

Toby Carvery do a roast for a tenner but that's the point low headline price to draw you in with the knowledge that more than less will add starter, desert and drinks.

At £135 a head it's either a very posh place or you're getting your full meal. 

born_again said:

Don't forget staff wages.
Christmas day, triple time so at least £30 per staff member.

Wife has been in catering for many years at various places, from waitress, to head chef, to manager of an establishment, you'd be surprised how little pay can be, even now in public sector bank holiday is only 1.8 times pay. 

Grumpy_chap said:

You know that and I know that.
We also both know that a large business that is part of a chain of businesses will be able to have creative accounting that shows the profit attached to the base cost of the meal is zero.  You need to consider how they will show the accounting for "centralised group functions" like procurement, HR, training and also the apportionment of outsourced functions such as cleaning...

I don't know what costs are allowed, there's an argument all those costs exist any way, there's argument proportioning them out is fair but at the end of the day the hotel are going to have to go to a lot of effort to put all that together for one customer looking to claim part of their money back. 

If OP makes a fuss and is offered something it's likely to be go away money which is probably the best to hope for with something like this given the headache of chasing it through small claims but that doesn't mean they can't use the legislation to state their position and see if they are offered something  

RefluentBeans

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

RefluentBeans said:

Im glad you think you can do Christmas dinner at £20 a head. 

Toby Carvery do a roast for a tenner but that's the point low headline price to draw you in with the knowledge that more than less will add starter, desert and drinks.

At £135 a head it's either a very posh place or you're getting your full meal. 

born_again said:

Don't forget staff wages.
Christmas day, triple time so at least £30 per staff member.

Wife has been in catering for many years at various places, from waitress, to head chef, to manager of an establishment, you'd be surprised how little pay can be, even now in public sector bank holiday is only 1.8 times pay. 

Grumpy_chap said:

You know that and I know that.
We also both know that a large business that is part of a chain of businesses will be able to have creative accounting that shows the profit attached to the base cost of the meal is zero.  You need to consider how they will show the accounting for "centralised group functions" like procurement, HR, training and also the apportionment of outsourced functions such as cleaning...

I don't know what costs are allowed, there's an argument all those costs exist any way, there's argument proportioning them out is fair but at the end of the day the hotel are going to have to go to a lot of effort to put all that together for one customer looking to claim part of their money back. 

If OP makes a fuss and is offered something it's likely to be go away money which is probably the best to hope for with something like this given the headache of chasing it through small claims but that doesn't mean they can't use the legislation to state their position and see if they are offered something  

At a hotel, I would expect the food to be better quality. Additionally, the Christmas Day menu is £58 at Toby Carvery, because it’s not just a carvery, it’s a Christmas dinner. 

As others have said the staff still need to get paid. The person who cancelled the day before may be able to argue the restaurant could’ve reallocated staffing resources, but the people who cancelled on the day (4/5) certainly can’t do that. 

Food prices can vary drastically - a burger and chips from McDonald’s is £2; from 5 guys is £10, and from Gordon Ramsays restaurant is >£20. If I cancel a Gordon Ramsay meal where I preorders and paid for a burger of £20, I can’t say ‘well McDonald’s charge £2 so I’ll be taking the £18 back please’. I think comparing a Toby Carvery served in a weekday to a Christmas meal at a restaurant is a bit disingenuous, as costs will be different. To a certain point, people expect a far higher experience at a Christmas dinner than a carvery. 

Additionally the cost for a London or Manchester restaurant is going be far different than a Leicester or Liverpool restaurant, and part of that will be the food costing more or less in certain markets. So I can certainly see why for Christmas Day meal in Manchester or London at a decent (but not upmarket) hotel could feasibly cost about £135 and they hope to make their money on alcohol and drink sales. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

When do you get a exclusive member of staff during dining? The staff are there any way. 

I couldn't see their Christmas price, kind of shows the point, they charge a premium because it's Christmas, the extra food and staff is likely less than the extra £48, basic supply and demand, higher prices at a peak period such as Christmas Day. 

I'm not saying it's impossible the meal is at cost, but I doubt it, most places are aiming for 65% GP (before VAT IIRC) which allows them to cover their costs and make a profit, add in the premium for Christmas Day and most places are making on the food regardless of paying the staff extra, whilst noting it's often a set menu reducing impact on the kitchen possibly reducing the volume of staff there that day.

We'll have to agree to disagree but until the OP asks the hotel whether they'd like to retain costs or loss of profits, no one will know    

RefluentBeans

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

When do you get a exclusive member of staff during dining? The staff are there any way. 

I couldn't see their Christmas price, kind of shows the point, they charge a premium because it's Christmas, the extra food and staff is likely less than the extra £48, basic supply and demand, higher prices at a peak period such as Christmas Day. 

I'm not saying it's impossible the meal is at cost, but I doubt it, most places are aiming for 65% GP (before VAT IIRC) which allows them to cover their costs and make a profit, add in the premium for Christmas Day and most places are making on the food regardless of paying the staff extra, whilst noting it's often a set menu reducing impact on the kitchen possibly reducing the volume of staff there that day.

We'll have to agree to disagree but until the OP asks the hotel whether they'd like to retain costs or loss of profits, no one will know    

The fact that a table cancelled means that staff can’t be reallocated. They can absolutely charge overhead costs, especially staffing costs. 

Christmas is like a wedding - people expect it to be perfect and perfect costs money. If people don’t like that, they do have the option of cooking themselves. Unfortunately the OP breached the contract, and that has a cost. Personally I’d give them £10 refund to make them go away. Asking for breakdowns of costs is something that businesses won’t give out, and nor should they have to, unless it goes to court. 

Emmia

RefluentBeans said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

When do you get a exclusive member of staff during dining? The staff are there any way. 

I couldn't see their Christmas price, kind of shows the point, they charge a premium because it's Christmas, the extra food and staff is likely less than the extra £48, basic supply and demand, higher prices at a peak period such as Christmas Day. 

I'm not saying it's impossible the meal is at cost, but I doubt it, most places are aiming for 65% GP (before VAT IIRC) which allows them to cover their costs and make a profit, add in the premium for Christmas Day and most places are making on the food regardless of paying the staff extra, whilst noting it's often a set menu reducing impact on the kitchen possibly reducing the volume of staff there that day.

We'll have to agree to disagree but until the OP asks the hotel whether they'd like to retain costs or loss of profits, no one will know    

The fact that a table cancelled means that staff can’t be reallocated. They can absolutely charge overhead costs, especially staffing costs. 

Christmas is like a wedding - people expect it to be perfect and perfect costs money. If people don’t like that, they do have the option of cooking themselves. Unfortunately the OP breached the contract, and that has a cost. Personally I’d give them £10 refund to make them go away. Asking for breakdowns of costs is something that businesses won’t give out, and nor should they have to, unless it goes to court. 

Suppose the OP was cooking Christmas dinner at home, and the same situation arose. Would they expect the supermarket they had purchased everything from to refund the turkey, nibbles, vegetables, etc., that they decided they weren't in the mood to cook or eat on Christmas day due to the MIL's illness? 

There are fixed costs for the hotel - if the table hadn't been booked (or cancelled in good time) then perhaps the hotel might have used fewer serving staff perhaps a smaller turkey would have been purchased, etc.

Still, by the time 4 of those places were cancelled, the turkey would (probably) have been in the oven, the veg peeled, the waiting staff on their way to work... Also, one turkey of the size a commercial restaurant may purchase would feed more than 5 people, so the turkey is getting roasted regardless of whether the meals were cancelled. There is no guarantee that the restaurant can sell cold turkey the following day (they may not be open). 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

RefluentBeans said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

When do you get a exclusive member of staff during dining? The staff are there any way. 

I couldn't see their Christmas price, kind of shows the point, they charge a premium because it's Christmas, the extra food and staff is likely less than the extra £48, basic supply and demand, higher prices at a peak period such as Christmas Day. 

I'm not saying it's impossible the meal is at cost, but I doubt it, most places are aiming for 65% GP (before VAT IIRC) which allows them to cover their costs and make a profit, add in the premium for Christmas Day and most places are making on the food regardless of paying the staff extra, whilst noting it's often a set menu reducing impact on the kitchen possibly reducing the volume of staff there that day.

We'll have to agree to disagree but until the OP asks the hotel whether they'd like to retain costs or loss of profits, no one will know    

The fact that a table cancelled means that staff can’t be reallocated. They can absolutely charge overhead costs, especially staffing costs. 

Christmas is like a wedding - people expect it to be perfect and perfect costs money. If people don’t like that, they do have the option of cooking themselves. Unfortunately the OP breached the contract, and that has a cost. Personally I’d give them £10 refund to make them go away. Asking for breakdowns of costs is something that businesses won’t give out, and nor should they have to, unless it goes to court. 

You’re missing the point that OP didn’t have their own chef and waiter, obviously enough staff is hired to cover bookings but one table cancelling doesn’t mean staff were sitting around twiddling their thumbs. 

If one waiter covers 5 tables and the place has an empty table they still need a waiter.