Take your meter readings on 1st January 2024

JSHarris

If you really want to get paranoid about data, then take a look at most modern cars.  My car constantly sends a massive amount of data back to Renault, and all this data is very easy to access via the Renault API.  My wife was away last week and I could just look at my Home Assistant screen (which just uses data from the easy to access Renault API) and see when she was stopped and charging, when she was driving, exactly where she was on the route, and a host of other information. I could even turn the heater on for her from my desktop if I wanted too! The same applies to many, perhaps most, cars made in the past few years.  

Most are connected, and it offers tremendous benefits, not least detecting if the car has crashed and sending an emergency alert, with the vehicle location and voice comms from inside the car to the emergency services.  Similarly, if the car was stolen I'd be alerted and be able to track where it was in real time on any device that has internet access.

Scot_39

JSHarris said:

FWIW, everyone that signs up to a smart tariff, like Agile, Go or whatever has agreed to 30 minute metering by default - none of the smart tariffs work without it AFAIK.  Also worth noting that there's a caveat to what a user can do in terms of preventing access to fine-grained metering data in that it is always available for any "regulated purpose", irrespective of what any consumer agrees to with their supplier.

This really is a bit of a stretch suggesting that there is some sort of privacy issue with smart meter data, IMHO.  Your DNO may well be monitoring your consumption to a far finer granularity than your smart meter, as part of the routine network monitoring they've been doing for years.  You may well not even be aware they are doing it, unless you happen to be in when they fit the monitor to the cable coming into to your house.  

As mentioned before, my DNO did this a couple of years ago.  They knocked on the door, told me they suspected an intermittent network fault and that they were fitting a monitoring recorder to my supply for a few days.  Interesting process, when the chap came to take the monitor off he uploaded all the data to a laptop in his van and let me have a look at it.  IIRC it logged power, voltage, current, power factor, frequency etc every 6 minutes, 24/7, for how every many days it was connected. 

I said nothing about security.

Only data access rights.

And refuted your presumption that suppliers were entitled to see 48 segmented 1/2 hourly resolution data from every smart meter.

Fine if by choice.  You want a deal you agree to its terms.

The DNO aren't your energy supplier responsible for billing etc, neither are the national grid and others who are enabled access under DAPF, suppliers explictly are not without an opt in permission.

Whether that's via a specific tariff T&Cs or rebate scheme at sign up  or manual as EOn seemed to imply for their rebate schemes to others is just mechanics - legal permission is key.

JSHarris

Scot_39 said:

JSHarris said:

FWIW, everyone that signs up to a smart tariff, like Agile, Go or whatever has agreed to 30 minute metering by default - none of the smart tariffs work without it AFAIK.  Also worth noting that there's a caveat to what a user can do in terms of preventing access to fine-grained metering data in that it is always available for any "regulated purpose", irrespective of what any consumer agrees to with their supplier.

This really is a bit of a stretch suggesting that there is some sort of privacy issue with smart meter data, IMHO.  Your DNO may well be monitoring your consumption to a far finer granularity than your smart meter, as part of the routine network monitoring they've been doing for years.  You may well not even be aware they are doing it, unless you happen to be in when they fit the monitor to the cable coming into to your house.  

As mentioned before, my DNO did this a couple of years ago.  They knocked on the door, told me they suspected an intermittent network fault and that they were fitting a monitoring recorder to my supply for a few days.  Interesting process, when the chap came to take the monitor off he uploaded all the data to a laptop in his van and let me have a look at it.  IIRC it logged power, voltage, current, power factor, frequency etc every 6 minutes, 24/7, for how every many days it was connected. 

I said nothing about security.

Only data access rights.

And refuted your presumption that suppliers were entitled to see 48 segmented 1/2 hourly resolution data from every smart meter.

Fine if by choice.  You want a deal you agree to its terms.

The DNO aren't your energy supplier responsible for billing etc, neither are the national grid and others who are enabled access under DAPF, suppliers explictly are not without an opt in permission.

Whether that's via a specific tariff T&Cs or rebate scheme at sign up  or manual as EOn seemed to imply for their rebate schemes to others is just mechanics - legal permission is key.

FWIW I never once used the word "entitled", you've made that up!  Suppliers can access and use as much data from DCC as they need, subject to the usual permissions, same as many other bodies that use meter data (and always have done, since long before smart meters).

Do the differences between the DNO, NG ESO, your supplier, DECC, DCC etc matter in terms of personal data access?

When data's out there, data's out there.  It's like my CCTV.  This records 24/7 and so I have a record of everyone that calls on us, including their vehicle registration.  As long as I don't misuse this there isn't anything anyone can do about it, other than ask me for a copy if they wish (and I'm then obliged to let them have it).  I deliberately don't have any cameras looking at the lane, as I took the view that this was a data protection issue, but when the police came around last year asking if my CCTV had recorded the lane they were disappointed it hadn't and told me there was no issue at all with realigning cameras to include the lane.  In fact they encouraged me to do this, as there had been a spate of farm machinery thefts locally and they wanted all the information they could get.

Scot_39

Do the differences between the DNO, NG ESO, your supplier, DECC, DCC etc matter in terms of personal data access?

Yes of course they clearly do to some.

If not why would govt depts see the need for differences in the DAPF.

JSHarris

I mean real, practical, differences, in terms of the threat to someone's well-being, risk of them incurring a loss or theft, personal harm etc (which is ultimately all that matters when it comes to data protection).

Scot_39

To me nowhere near as important as some other data  as you say.

But even now many Smart meter cynics - some real objectors - remain - and one of the arguments against SM - was always that it could allow suppliers to force people onto variable time of use tariffs.

And people still on non SM are more likely arguably to to read this thread.

I suspect those sort of objections are one of the reason if not the main for the DAPF block.

Despite likes of agile and smart EV - and the various peak demand shifting schemes etc - being a fairly positive result of SM for many over the last year.

But for Smart "cynics" - it is perhaps important that they know they are (still AFAIK - that review link above was 2018 - at time of new EU GDPR) protected against variable time of use metering - and so billing - if choose not to take advantage.

Saying that the 48 1/2 hrly data measurements are out there anyway - risks countering that.

DAPF limits - probably not that well known - takes one potential negative out of their pro / con list.

JSHarris

The point about forcing people onto specific tariffs is a good one, and one that does sit at the back of my mind as a concern.  My house was designed around using Economy 7 fro the start, everything about the house is designed to make best use of electricity for around 7 hours every night.  The house wouldn't, for example, be at all comfortable in cold weather if I was forced to use a 5 hour off-peak period - time is critical as the slow heat release time from the storage heating system is directly linked to the slow heat up time.  Nothing I can do about that, for efficiency the heat pump is limited to 35°C, and that effectively fixes the storage heating time.

As it happens the smart meter issues won't affect me, other than by limiting the range of tariffs I can choose from, as there's no mobile signal here and not likely to be one in my lifetime (not enough people live in our valley to justify installing a mast down here, apparently).  I can see this being an issue for those with storage heating who can have smart meters, though.  Storage heaters seem to be having something of a renaissance now there are super efficient models, like the Quantum around.  Combined with good insulation and airtightness there's a lot to be said for the simplicity and reliability of the things.  One house I regularly do safety checks on has had the same storage heaters for close to 50 years and they are still working fine, if not as efficiently as newer models.  Not many heating systems have this sort of maintenance-free lifetime.

pseudodox

As always the original topic has gone a bit off piste (nothing wrong with a good conversation) but thought I would follow up on my post of 24 December regarding the tariff change as of 1st January.  I submitted my usual monthly readings on 26th December.  This generated a bill for £147, with DD payment date of 11th January.  I submitted readings on 1st January which has now resulted in a new bill with the £147 b/fwd and another £32 added on with a new proposed DD collection of £179 on 17th January.  Going on past performance I still suspect that they will take the £147 on the 11th and the extra £32 on the 17th. Which is fine as I am prepared for those 2 amounts to hit my bank on those dates.  But it could have been a problem if I did not move £179 into my current account until just before 17th.  This could easily catch someone out and result in a failed DD.  Take care.  I still am aiming to get my billing cycle shifted forward a few days to coincide with rate changes so may contact EDF about this during the current quarter.

Happy New Year!

MultiFuelBurner

pseudodox said:

As always the original topic has gone a bit off piste (nothing wrong with a good conversation) but thought I would follow up on my post of 24 December regarding the tariff change as of 1st January.  I submitted my usual monthly readings on 26th December.  This generated a bill for £147, with DD payment date of 11th January.  I submitted readings on 1st January which has now resulted in a new bill with the £147 b/fwd and another £32 added on with a new proposed DD collection of £179 on 17th January.  Going on past performance I still suspect that they will take the £147 on the 11th and the extra £32 on the 17th. Which is fine as I am prepared for those 2 amounts to hit my bank on those dates.  But it could have been a problem if I did not move £179 into my current account until just before 17th.  This could easily catch someone out and result in a failed DD.  Take care.  I still am aiming to get my billing cycle shifted forward a few days to coincide with rate changes so may contact EDF about this during the current quarter.

Happy New Year!

Ah the battle of 2 essay creators. 😂👍 I must admit it's not rare for any topic to be sent off track these days. 

Happy New Year !

born_again

Scot_39 said:

So take energy usage and DAPF resolution levels and its potential

MONTHLY
Data could be used to tell if away for long periods within the month compared to that month in a previous year or similar month  - e.g. spotting a longer say wk business or holiday trip.

DAILY
Could tell if out that day easily in most cases.
Spot with reasonable confidence abnormal variations - taking or skipping large power demands  laundry/drying days, shower, bath etc


1/2 Hourly
Could tell not only if but when when doing certain activities - again especially those taking large power demands.
Showering, heating, cooking etc
Now with confidence even lower energy devices events possible as AI algorithms applied TVs, kettles etc at times.
Awake or sleeping etc etc.

Are that worried?
What do you think they will do if they spot a trend? 

I can think of a far easier way of knowing/tracking exactly what you are doing.