Migration from benefits to UC questions? Saving etc?

Spoonie_Turtle

sunnyhampshire said:

these figures are mind blowing and why tc were a bad idea and the op is upset that uc wont pay his impending mortgage and could end up in poverty
dont post much but this is a joke trying to play the system at the very extreme

You do realise those figures are only a maximum earnings amount for UC (not Tax Credits) because of their specific circumstances - disability is expensive - ans the OP's wife is eaening NOWHERE NEAR that much, which you would know if you read the whole thread rather than jumping in to dump your judgement here.

poppy12345 said:

Spoonie_Turtle said:

Right, have amended my previous post but for simplicity here is the accurate calculation for the first 12months while you have £16,000+ in savings … but based on rates up until April, so it will all increase after that.

Unless the OP claims UC before the April increase. If they do and their UC includes TP then when benefits increase in April the TP decreases so no overall increase to benefits entitlement. Unless the increase is more than the TP.

These calculations aren't including any TP because I wasn't in a position to even attempt to calculate it if it were needed anyway, but If I understand TP correctly, it likely won't apply because with rent their UC will be way more than their TC were.

blackstar said:

Anyome know if my mother was to use her own money directly to pay for a deposit for a property for us, never even going into our own account? Would that affect our UC if getting UC and between 6k - 16k in savings?
Ie the deposit was sent directly to my solicitor I don't see any of it. The mortgage goes directly to solicitor from the lender I see none of it?

I don't know if solicitors would allow that.

Look, using your own money to buy a suitable house for your family to live is realistically not going to be deemed DoC.  You already intend to move because you need somewhere more suitable, you've already been saving up with the intention of using your savings for a deposit, and the fact you'll get way more in UC payments than from TC is what will allow you to continue saving and reach your goal quicker.  If that coincides with being able to buy a house before the transitional protection on savings ends, well that's just because of being able to save up quicker.  So it's not coincidence if you can get it to happen, but there's a very solid, valid reason behind it.  Putting down a deposit for a property that meets your needs better is reasonable expenditure, you've not frittered it away just to get below the 16k threshold.

blackstar

Spoonie very true. Disability is highly expensive and there's 3 of us in our family.

There needs to be a changing welfare rules so that the 1.5 million people who are in work but also on housing benefit will be given the choice to use their benefit towards a mortgage, rather than automatically going directly to private landlords and housing associations.

The welfare system exists as a safety net to help the poorest people, but the government should want to incentivise people to take steps to better their lives.

So if a hard-working family saves a deposit to buy a home, the government should back them with the same housing support that they would have used on their rent, to pay towards their mortgage instead.

Yes we are close to the 16k and need atleast 20k for a deposit for a property suitable for our children's disabilities and something more stable and secure and nearer to their their special needs school. So close now and so stressed about when the UC migration letter comes. 

"It’s been tested (repeatedly) in the context of disposing of capital in order to purchase other forms of capital which are disregarded - e.g. annuities. And the caselaw on those cases is absolutely clear; such a purchase absolutely can involve/result in deliberate deprivation. What is crucial is the claimant’s purpose or intention when making the purchase/disposing of the capital - if that purpose is the ‘forbidden purpose’ then they are liable to be caught by the notional capital rules even if what was purchased is something that is subject to a capital disregard. So it really makes no difference what specific type of disregarded capital is purchased - notional capital can still be in play."

I quote this

Spoonie_Turtle

blackstar said:

Yes we are close to the 16k and need atleast 20k for a deposit for a property suitable for our children's disabilities and something more stable and secure and nearer to their their special needs school. So close now and so stressed about when the UC migration letter comes. 

"It’s been tested (repeatedly) in the context of disposing of capital in order to purchase other forms of capital which are disregarded - e.g. annuities. And the caselaw on those cases is absolutely clear; such a purchase absolutely can involve/result in deliberate deprivation. What is crucial is the claimant’s purpose or intention when making the purchase/disposing of the capital - if that purpose is the ‘forbidden purpose’ then they are liable to be caught by the notional capital rules even if what was purchased is something that is subject to a capital disregard. So it really makes no difference what specific type of disregarded capital is purchased - notional capital can still be in play."

I quote this

And I'll quote your own words:  "for a property suitable for our children's disabilities and something more stable and secure and nearer to their their special needs school."

Also from page 2 "to get a property that better suits our childrens disabilities as the council and Social housing have no properties available at all".

You have been planning to move and saving up for … how many years now?  Must have been several, to save up over £16,000.  It's not on a whim, it's not just for a nicer house, it's not even as if social housing is an option you're choosing to forgo.  You could not have foreseen when you set this goal that you would be told to migrate to UC at this specific time and that you'd be able to save up enough to potentially be able to use the deposit in the one year you have transitional protection for UC.  It would have been impossible to calculate everything that led up to this, especially since the government's own plans have changed timetable MANY times in recent years and inflation has varied wildly, and with it benefits amounts and cost of living and what you're able to save will have varied beyond any ordinary person's capabilities of prediction.

DWP have to prove intentional deprivation in order to increase benefit entitlement is a significant factor in using savings, to accuse someone of DoC.  Granted the savings threshold is a consideration *now*, but the intention to buy a property is the main motivation to use your savings whenever you do get to, and something you've intended for years already without even having to think about UC.

AND, if on the remote chance DoC were to be decided (I can't see how, it would be utterly ridiculous, but since you're concerned it might be a possibility), it is an appealable decision.

jojaca

First of all I am lucky that I bought my house while on tax credits and got lucky with catching the golden period of Tax Credits because kids are starting to come off our hands in a few years. But on Universal Credit how you are meant to save for a house and big ticket items like cars on Universal Credit, you are just punishing the working poor.

With these savings limits on Universal Credit, you are just encouraging the population to be poorer because most people will the play the system and basically spend or redistribute their savings to try to get the maximum Universal Credit. I have not had my migration notice, but planed for these changes years in advanced and started paying off my mortgage, buying gold etc to make sure when my migration period is over that I claim the full maximum Universal Credit. 

I just think governments have no right to see what sum is in one bank account, but there needs a minimum sum for basic people to live on. What they do with that money is not of anyone's business. 

blackstar

Spoonie you are right in all you say.
I am wondering though have you known of cases like ours who have done this and had no issues with DoC either personally or on thus or other forum's? 

peteuk

@jojaca There has to be a limit somewhere and no matter where you put that limit someone will fall the wrong side of it. 

Its there to stop people sponging off the state, there has to be a level of common sense about this or you get people living off the state with two houses, £30K in the bank etc etc (which is what is borne out on these forums as people switch from tax credits to UC)

The last holiday I had was 2021 (four days in Croatia) since then I’ve struggled with the cost of living, paying my mortgage etc etc.  I get nothing from the government as I work full time in a moderately well paid job.  (I received the £150 council tax rebate and £400 heating help)   So whilst the government are paying people UC then yes your right it should afford them a living standard they are also checks and balances to ensure its not being milked.

Because if not I may as well, sell my house, move to rented stick the equity in the house in a bank account, not work and claim UC and spend the next few years holidaying on the money from my house.  (Im over egging it to make a point)

I totally get there are people who can not work for one reason or another, but there are people who are milking the system.  Which is wrong.  If youve got £16K in the bank then currently you cant claim UC (unless transitioning from TC) yes that limit is low and i believe hasn’t changed for some years but its a one size fits all rule.   Certain things are disregarded eg if you sell your house but intend to buy another your given a period of grace to hold money in an account,

jojaca

@peteuk All good valid points, but good honest people on full time work are relying on benefits now and are in catch 22 situation when trying to the right thing and save for mortgage, get punished by losing for example £100 week if you go over the savings limit and end up in a cycle where you can't save because your £400 a month down. 

Saving to buy a car is out of the window, a ten year old banger now is close to 10k, so the main option now would be to get car loan and pay 2k+ over the odds. 

Universal credit system is fine, just needs to support the working person more. If you work 30 hours or more, maybe increase the limit to £50000 so people have a chance of getting on the housing ladder. The Savings limit of 6k is poor because most households have 3k going in and out every month. 

With every system in place there will always be people milking the system, the don't come bigger than the ones the that make the rules. 

peteuk

jojaca said:

Universal credit system is fine, just needs to support the working person more. If you work 30 hours or more, maybe increase the limit to £50000 so people have a chance of getting on the housing ladder. The Savings limit of 6k is poor because most households have 3k going in and out every month. 

Monthly income and expenditure doesn't count and its the amount you have at the end of your assessment period.   And its only after you hit the £6/£15K that you declare it.

For every £250 over the £6K, it calculates £4.35 of earnings and this continues upward in increase st of £250 until the £16K limit.  If I’m correct at £0.55 per pound deduction then for each £250 your UC is deduced by £2.35.

But you can argue where the threshold and limit is/should be all day, someone is always going to fall the wrong side of it.  

I totally get theres a tranche of people who dont get any help from the government.  As previous noted a few years ago I left my long time employment, at one point i was jobless and homeless but with a good size saving pot.  Entitled to zero!  Only thing we’ve ever claimed was CTC when our kids were young.  So when we could have done with a little help, nothing…

Thats life!

blackstar

Thinking about this 12 months protection transition period for people who have savings over 16k migrating over to UC. What's the point? Say someone has 19k when they migrate over and it's protected for 12 months and they manage to save upto 20k then at the end of the 12 months their benefits still stop and will have to then live on what they saved and in 2 or 3 months will be back OK UC?

poppy12345

blackstar said:

Thinking about this 12 months protection transition period for people who have savings over 16k migrating over to UC. What's the point? Say someone has 19k when they migrate over and it's protected for 12 months and they manage to save upto 20k then at the end of the 12 months their benefits still stop and will have to then live on what they saved and in 2 or 3 months will be back OK UC?

I think you're missing the point. The point is that providing they do not go under the £16,000 and then back over it again within those 12 months then they would have received UC for those 12 months. You can't expect to continue to claim for longer than 12 months if you still have more than £16,000 at the end of that time.