TV Licensing Law? Virgin TV Package but not watching any live TV

cerebus

oldernonethewiser said:

I definitely don't stress over things I don't need but I do pay for the things I do need.  

A TV licence is not something I need or want.

I hope that people who do need one pay for it.

I have had two visits, in different homes, over the years.

Last one a chap came to the door and asked "Do you have a TV licence?"

Me - Nope

Him - Can I come in and check?

Me - Nope

And he went on his way.

Any future visit won't get the same lengthy engagement from me.

Thats two words too long!

oldernonethewiser

cerebus said:

oldernonethewiser said:

I definitely don't stress over things I don't need but I do pay for the things I do need.  

A TV licence is not something I need or want.

I hope that people who do need one pay for it.

I have had two visits, in different homes, over the years.

Last one a chap came to the door and asked "Do you have a TV licence?"

Me - Nope

Him - Can I come in and check?

Me - Nope

And he went on his way.

Any future visit won't get the same lengthy engagement from me.

Thats two words too long!

I was in a good mood and being chatty.

Neither will happen again.

wild666

If you don't watch or record live as shown TV programs then you don't need a licence. I used to have my TV connected to an aerial socket and used to listen to the local radio sports commentary's through it. 
One way to stop the TV showing any live TV channels is to put a code in so that those channels need the code to access them but leave the radio stations alone. Another way is to delete all live TV channels from the TV. 
The deleting channels  might not be available with a STB but a code to access the channel might be an option. 
If a TV Licensing enforcer turns up all you have to do is ask who they are and if they won't show ID, some of them used to not show ID until they got info on the person at the property, just shut the door and that's any investigation stopped in its tracks.

wild666

Grumpy_chap said:

Itsokaytonotbeokay said:

We only watch streaming services which are of pre-recorded programmes on our smart TV 


_________________

From Communications act (2003):

Part 4Licensing of TV reception

363Licence required for use of TV receiver

(1)A television receiver must not be installed or used unless the installation and use of the receiver is authorised by a licence under this Part.

I am not sure that the Virgin package or not is critical here as the simple fact of having the smart TV would seem to require a licence under the first item of the rules you extracted.

The Smart TV is a television receiver and you have it installed and used.  That part does not continue from the extract to say "used to receive live TV".

I am sure others will shout me down and say you do not need a licence just to have the telly.

I have a 65" smart TV but haven't connected the aerial so it cannot download any live TV stations, I use it for the games consoles and streaming services. 

wild666

cerebus said:

Heedtheadvice said:

@grumpy as posted earlier I agree with you on that wording.

and one might infer that @km1500 is correct too ( if not meaning that it should be the case!).

....but again that is just my opinion!

Nowhere, so far, in this thread is there a definition of a TV Receiver...in law!...rather than our opinions. If there is one then that, legally, would be very significant......

From the Act

'368Meanings of “television receiver” and “use”

(1)In this Part “television receiver” means any apparatus of a description specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State setting out the descriptions of apparatus that are to be television receivers for the purposes of this Part.'

So the equipment definition can be and is elsewhere, not part of the Act.

Here is the Statutory Instrument wording

'

 Help about opening options
Opening OptionsExpand opening options
More ResourcesExpand PDF versions
Status:

This is the original version (as it was originally made). This item of legislation is currently only available in its original format.
Amendment of regulation 9

6.—(1) In regulation 9 (meaning of “television receiver”)(1), for paragraph (1) substitute—

“(1) Subject to paragraph (2), in Part 4 of the Act (licensing of TV reception), “television receiver” means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise)—

(a)any television programme service, or

(b)an on-demand programme service which is provided by the BBC,

whether or not the apparatus is installed or used for any other purpose.”.
'

Clear?

Also in legal matters Case Law is important. I.e. that clarification given by historic court judgement. There have been many a judgement and over 130K  'prosecutions'.

Anybody wishing to fight with the authorities could well be advised to find out about those 'clarifications' !

I do not know them but I suspect the Authority will do as itbis their job.

You can turn an insector away at your door but equally they can apply for a warrant and interview you under the PACE regulations like the police do.

There is a group of volunteers who try to clarify things for the general public. See

https://tvlicencebible.co.uk/tv-licensing-law/

I still find some of their clarification confusing and personally would not rely on it if I happened to being investigated by an inspector!!

Warrants are extremely rare and you do not need to say anything when interviewed by anybody , you have the right not to say anything 

If they turn up with a warrant and you step outside the property and close the door then they won't enter as they could be the only one's in the property and turning on a TV and trying to access a live as shown station would see them as the only ones watching the live TV program so they would have to prosecute themselves, they wouldn't do that so if they cannot gain entry they walk away. They could come back every day for 28 days trying to execute the warrant but plod wouldn't be happy about having to turn up at the same property for 28 days in a row trying to gain access to a property. 

wild666

RumRat said:

Don't forget the Capita stooge gets commission for every TV licence they get signed up. It's their sole reason for coming to your house, so you owe them no explanations. As said, don't talk to them.

Capita goons are now offered a company car or about £3700 per year to use their own vehicle, which they can also use as their personal vehicle. The commission they get might not be any more as they are on about £30,000 per year with the company car. 
The goons usually start off with " are you the homeowner?" the reply should be " not interested!" or Who are you then not interested then shut the door. That's any investigation they are conducting done with as they cannot proceed any further.

wild666

TD_Cat_Lover said:

Even if you have no TV and you just listen to the radio you need a licence. But how do they know whether you’re listening to BBC radio stations or others? They used to have to catch you doing it when they came round with their van and scanned what you were watching or listening to. So I can only assume if you’re just streaming then they have to prove you’re watching the channels the TV Licence pays for. They may have a new way of doing this and they would have to prove it in court.

There was discussions as to whether it be scrapped and the BBC have adverts instead. This day and age I don’t understand why they haven’t done this already. Would save everyone a lot of hassle.
 maybe someone at your local citizens advice could help you if you can’t get a definite answer in here that is. No offence intended I’m new. 

You don't need a licence to listen to the BBC radio stations, I listen to the local football match commentary every week on my local BBC radio station. 
The vans don't work, they might have done for the old CRT TV's when homes only had lights and an iron using electric, there's a video on You Tube about someone who bought an old TV detector van and restored it. The Van detected a TV on a driveway, I suspect they first tried it inside the property but it couldn't detect the difference between a TV and a freezer inside a property. 
The modern vans are nothing more than a van with a company logo on the sides, they haven't being able to detect a TV since the early 60's when homes started to get fridges and freezer and modern homes are packed with electronic equipment. 
Before Feb 1971 you even got prosecuted for listening to BBC radio stations but now it's incorporated into the TV licence so it's free to listen to BBC radio stations.

Cornucopia

wild666 said:

cerebus said:

Heedtheadvice said:

@grumpy as posted earlier I agree with you on that wording.

and one might infer that @km1500 is correct too ( if not meaning that it should be the case!).

....but again that is just my opinion!

Nowhere, so far, in this thread is there a definition of a TV Receiver...in law!...rather than our opinions. If there is one then that, legally, would be very significant......

From the Act

'368Meanings of “television receiver” and “use”

(1)In this Part “television receiver” means any apparatus of a description specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State setting out the descriptions of apparatus that are to be television receivers for the purposes of this Part.'

So the equipment definition can be and is elsewhere, not part of the Act.

Here is the Statutory Instrument wording

'

 Help about opening options
Opening OptionsExpand opening options
More ResourcesExpand PDF versions
Status:

This is the original version (as it was originally made). This item of legislation is currently only available in its original format.
Amendment of regulation 9

6.—(1) In regulation 9 (meaning of “television receiver”)(1), for paragraph (1) substitute—

“(1) Subject to paragraph (2), in Part 4 of the Act (licensing of TV reception), “television receiver” means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise)—

(a)any television programme service, or

(b)an on-demand programme service which is provided by the BBC,

whether or not the apparatus is installed or used for any other purpose.”.
'

Clear?

Also in legal matters Case Law is important. I.e. that clarification given by historic court judgement. There have been many a judgement and over 130K  'prosecutions'.

Anybody wishing to fight with the authorities could well be advised to find out about those 'clarifications' !

I do not know them but I suspect the Authority will do as itbis their job.

You can turn an insector away at your door but equally they can apply for a warrant and interview you under the PACE regulations like the police do.

There is a group of volunteers who try to clarify things for the general public. See

https://tvlicencebible.co.uk/tv-licensing-law/

I still find some of their clarification confusing and personally would not rely on it if I happened to being investigated by an inspector!!

Warrants are extremely rare and you do not need to say anything when interviewed by anybody , you have the right not to say anything 

If they turn up with a warrant and you step outside the property and close the door then they won't enter as they could be the only one's in the property and turning on a TV and trying to access a live as shown station would see them as the only ones watching the live TV program so they would have to prosecute themselves, they wouldn't do that so if they cannot gain entry they walk away. They could come back every day for 28 days trying to execute the warrant but plod wouldn't be happy about having to turn up at the same property for 28 days in a row trying to gain access to a property. 

I don't particularly want to get involved in a discussion about TVL warrants as they are so vanishingly rare.   However, I wouldn't suggest closing the door on them, whether you are inside or outside the property.   (That way lies the obstruction offence).

There is a video that shows a person getting a Warrant served who defeats it (probably) by staying outside the property with the front door open.   Given what we know, that's quite a clever strategy as long as you are prepared to call their bluff that they won't enter without you.   They probably won't, but they can be unpredictable.   They can't force you to go inside the property because that is outside the terms of the Warrant.

cerebus

Cornucopia said:

wild666 said:

cerebus said:

Heedtheadvice said:

@grumpy as posted earlier I agree with you on that wording.

and one might infer that @km1500 is correct too ( if not meaning that it should be the case!).

....but again that is just my opinion!

Nowhere, so far, in this thread is there a definition of a TV Receiver...in law!...rather than our opinions. If there is one then that, legally, would be very significant......

From the Act

'368Meanings of “television receiver” and “use”

(1)In this Part “television receiver” means any apparatus of a description specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State setting out the descriptions of apparatus that are to be television receivers for the purposes of this Part.'

So the equipment definition can be and is elsewhere, not part of the Act.

Here is the Statutory Instrument wording

'

 Help about opening options
Opening OptionsExpand opening options
More ResourcesExpand PDF versions
Status:

This is the original version (as it was originally made). This item of legislation is currently only available in its original format.
Amendment of regulation 9

6.—(1) In regulation 9 (meaning of “television receiver”)(1), for paragraph (1) substitute—

“(1) Subject to paragraph (2), in Part 4 of the Act (licensing of TV reception), “television receiver” means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise)—

(a)any television programme service, or

(b)an on-demand programme service which is provided by the BBC,

whether or not the apparatus is installed or used for any other purpose.”.
'

Clear?

Also in legal matters Case Law is important. I.e. that clarification given by historic court judgement. There have been many a judgement and over 130K  'prosecutions'.

Anybody wishing to fight with the authorities could well be advised to find out about those 'clarifications' !

I do not know them but I suspect the Authority will do as itbis their job.

You can turn an insector away at your door but equally they can apply for a warrant and interview you under the PACE regulations like the police do.

There is a group of volunteers who try to clarify things for the general public. See

https://tvlicencebible.co.uk/tv-licensing-law/

I still find some of their clarification confusing and personally would not rely on it if I happened to being investigated by an inspector!!

Warrants are extremely rare and you do not need to say anything when interviewed by anybody , you have the right not to say anything 

If they turn up with a warrant and you step outside the property and close the door then they won't enter as they could be the only one's in the property and turning on a TV and trying to access a live as shown station would see them as the only ones watching the live TV program so they would have to prosecute themselves, they wouldn't do that so if they cannot gain entry they walk away. They could come back every day for 28 days trying to execute the warrant but plod wouldn't be happy about having to turn up at the same property for 28 days in a row trying to gain access to a property. 

I don't particularly want to get involved in a discussion about TVL warrants as they are so vanishingly rare.   However, I wouldn't suggest closing the door on them, whether you are inside or outside the property.   (That way lies the obstruction offence).

There is a video that shows a person getting a Warrant served who defeats it (probably) by staying outside the property with the front door open.   Given what we know, that's quite a clever strategy as long as you are prepared to call their bluff that they won't enter without you.   They probably won't, but they can be unpredictable.   They can't force you to go inside in the property because that is outside the terms of the Warrant.

You would have grounds for an assault charge if they tried to physically force you to do anything 

Cornucopia

cerebus said:

Cornucopia said:

wild666 said:

cerebus said:

Heedtheadvice said:

@grumpy as posted earlier I agree with you on that wording.

and one might infer that @km1500 is correct too ( if not meaning that it should be the case!).

....but again that is just my opinion!

Nowhere, so far, in this thread is there a definition of a TV Receiver...in law!...rather than our opinions. If there is one then that, legally, would be very significant......

From the Act

'368Meanings of “television receiver” and “use”

(1)In this Part “television receiver” means any apparatus of a description specified in regulations made by the Secretary of State setting out the descriptions of apparatus that are to be television receivers for the purposes of this Part.'

So the equipment definition can be and is elsewhere, not part of the Act.

Here is the Statutory Instrument wording

'

 Help about opening options
Opening OptionsExpand opening options
More ResourcesExpand PDF versions
Status:

This is the original version (as it was originally made). This item of legislation is currently only available in its original format.
Amendment of regulation 9

6.—(1) In regulation 9 (meaning of “television receiver”)(1), for paragraph (1) substitute—

“(1) Subject to paragraph (2), in Part 4 of the Act (licensing of TV reception), “television receiver” means any apparatus installed or used for the purpose of receiving (whether by means of wireless telegraphy or otherwise)—

(a)any television programme service, or

(b)an on-demand programme service which is provided by the BBC,

whether or not the apparatus is installed or used for any other purpose.”.
'

Clear?

Also in legal matters Case Law is important. I.e. that clarification given by historic court judgement. There have been many a judgement and over 130K  'prosecutions'.

Anybody wishing to fight with the authorities could well be advised to find out about those 'clarifications' !

I do not know them but I suspect the Authority will do as itbis their job.

You can turn an insector away at your door but equally they can apply for a warrant and interview you under the PACE regulations like the police do.

There is a group of volunteers who try to clarify things for the general public. See

https://tvlicencebible.co.uk/tv-licensing-law/

I still find some of their clarification confusing and personally would not rely on it if I happened to being investigated by an inspector!!

Warrants are extremely rare and you do not need to say anything when interviewed by anybody , you have the right not to say anything 

If they turn up with a warrant and you step outside the property and close the door then they won't enter as they could be the only one's in the property and turning on a TV and trying to access a live as shown station would see them as the only ones watching the live TV program so they would have to prosecute themselves, they wouldn't do that so if they cannot gain entry they walk away. They could come back every day for 28 days trying to execute the warrant but plod wouldn't be happy about having to turn up at the same property for 28 days in a row trying to gain access to a property. 

I don't particularly want to get involved in a discussion about TVL warrants as they are so vanishingly rare.   However, I wouldn't suggest closing the door on them, whether you are inside or outside the property.   (That way lies the obstruction offence).

There is a video that shows a person getting a Warrant served who defeats it (probably) by staying outside the property with the front door open.   Given what we know, that's quite a clever strategy as long as you are prepared to call their bluff that they won't enter without you.   They probably won't, but they can be unpredictable.   They can't force you to go inside in the property because that is outside the terms of the Warrant.

You would have grounds for an assault charge if they tried to physically force you to do anything 

Yes - I meant physically or legally force you - they can't do either of those things.