Parking or Stopping?

Umkomaas

Just one question though.  The advice here is to always complain to the landowner, which is fair enough.  I thought this was so that the landowner could tell the parking company to cancel a PCN, in which case and easy solution for the practice in the video might be to instruct the parking company to not issue any further PCN for the remainder of their contract. 

Unlikely the contract would allow that. Those we've seen with PCN cancellation options are limited to a small percentage of tickets issued (and only the PPC knows how many they've issued!), thereafter the landowner is often required to compensate the PPC up to the value of the PCN. 

Ties landowners down somewhat, and you can see why not many are going out of their way to help.

nameavailable

I received a prompt and sympathetic reply from PALS but unfortunately they could only confirm that the road in question was not part of hospital land and they have no dealings with National Parking Enforcement.  I've asked if they know who is the landowner, but given ukomass' comments above even the landowner might not be able to help.  So, pay the paltry PCN or spend a lot of time and angst fighting it?  Hmm.

I'm not too bothered about ignoring it and all the likely intimidatory letters from all and sundry but what does bother me is if it ends up in court.  Not because I'm scared of being in court (I won a London parking tribunal appeal many years ago) but because of the basic facts of the matter and, I'll be honest, having some sympathy with the landowner.  

If you own some private land then surely you have some right to say who can access it?  In which case, what would be my defence in court.  I DID stop on private land in front of a clearly marked gate, against the wishes of the landowner (or their assigned parking control agent).  I know the various arguments about signage technicalities, grace periods, etc etc, but the basic fact remains that I did something against the wishes of a private landowner.  I know I would feel aggrieved if someone decided to stop and (say) have a picnic in my front garden - I'm sure we all would - but what if they started arguing on the basis that they were doing no harm, or I wasn't using my garden at the time, or I wasn't even at home at the time so what harm was being done?

fisherjim

I've since seen the gate sign stating 'no parking - this entrance must be kept clear at all times'.

Which is exactly why you have a case for appeal!

I received a prompt and sympathetic reply from PALS but unfortunately they could only confirm that the road in question was not part of hospital land and they have no dealings with National Parking Enforcement.

They would say that wouldn't they, and the land has NPE signs all over it, you are being brushed off.

If £60 is so "paltry"to you why bother the busy volunteers on here is the first place?

Coupon-mad

You have a strong defence and NPE hardly ever try court claims. Even less likely next year if the DLUHC get their act together and bring in the new Code of Practice before any GE.

nameavailable

fisherjim said:

I've since seen the gate sign stating 'no parking - this entrance must be kept clear at all times'.

Which is exactly why you have a case for appeal!

I received a prompt and sympathetic reply from PALS but unfortunately they could only confirm that the road in question was not part of hospital land and they have no dealings with National Parking Enforcement.

They would say that wouldn't they, and the land has NPE signs all over it, you are being brushed off.

If £60 is so "paltry"to you why bother the busy volunteers on here is the first place?

Sorry if I'm being dim, but what's my defence for stopping on private land in front of gates with a sign stating 'no parking' etc?  Sure, I caused no loss or inconvenience to anyone or anything but is that really good enough for a court judge?  What if I parked on your private driveway while you were at work and left before you got home - could I really get away with it because you were not inconvenienced in any way?  Would you think that was fair?

Also, would PALS really lie to me?  There might be NPE signed on the land in question but that doesn't mean it's anything to do with the hospital.  The gates in question are adjacent to the NRP Car Park (Norwich Research Park?), so perhaps it's owned by them?  I'll be following that up.

As for £60 being 'paltry', I only meant that it's a relatively small amount compared to all the time, effort and angst involved in fighting these PCNs.  I know the busy volunteers here claim a 99.5% success rate in fighting these PCNs but I suspect this is a very small overall percentage of PCNs issued because, let's be honest, these private parking enforcers would all be out of business if only 0.5% of issued PCNs were paid.  So, is this because not many people know about forums and websites like this or because the majority of 'victims' think that £60 is a small enough price to pay to avoid all the time, effort and angst involved in fighting them?

Coupon-mad

Sorry if I'm being dim, but what's my defence for stopping on private land in front of gates with a sign stating 'no parking' etc?

Loads:

- didn't see the sign from angle of approach
- no grace period allowed (if the stop was brief)
- predatory ticketing by this ex-clamper
- the site sets drivers up for a pitfall/trap
- no markings on the carriageway
- sign is prohibitive (if a sign says 'no parking' it bans such conduct, offers nothing of value & isn't a contract)
- no landowner authority
- charge is a penalty due to all of the above. 

Need we add more?

ALMOST ALL PRIVATE PCNs ARE DEFENDABLE

fisherjim

nameavailable said:

 What if I parked on your private driveway while you were at work and left before you got home - could I really get away with it because you were not inconvenienced in any way?  Would you think that was fair?

Also, would PALS really lie to me?  There might be NPE signed on the land in question but that doesn't mean it's anything to do with the hospital.  The gates in question are adjacent to the NRP Car Park (Norwich Research Park?), so perhaps it's owned by them?  I'll be following that up.

But I don't invite the public on to my private driveway, then hide signage with all sorts of terms and conditions made up to catch people out and then hide cameras up poles for the sole purpose of as many charges as possible which are dressed up as official parking tickets to again catch people out, then reject every appeal whether reasonable or not.

PALS in this case will just be going along with the usual script that the PPC has given them to make them the most money while deflecting the problem to them who don't care.

nameavailable

Coupon-mad said:

Sorry if I'm being dim, but what's my defence for stopping on private land in front of gates with a sign stating 'no parking' etc?

Loads:

- didn't see the sign from angle of approach
- no grace period allowed (if the stop was brief)
- predatory ticketing by this ex-clamper
- the site sets drivers up for a pitfall/trap
- no markings on the carriageway
- sign is prohibitive (if a sign says 'no parking' it bans such conduct, offers nothing of value & isn't a contract)
- no landowner authority
- charge is a penalty due to all of the above. 

Need we add more?

ALMOST ALL PRIVATE PCNs ARE DEFENDABLE

OK, thanks for that.  On that basis I'm going for broke!

I've just received a 'final reminder' from NPE for the £100 parking charge (having missed out on the £60 'offer' due to my appeal to them (yes, I know now, waste of time!).

The letter confirms the opportunity ot appeal has now expired, but I can complain to them directly in the first instance.  if not satisfied I can then appeal to the IPC.  

I'm guessing both these options are a waste of time but will they do any harm??

I've read the newbies faqs again but am a still worried about two things:

1.  I've made the mistake of admitting I was the driver

2. This PCN is for 'no parking' rather than a car park violation

Do these points invalidate the recommended actions to fight the PCN?

Meanwhile, I plan to complain to the landowner, now believed to be Norwich Research Park using the defences mentioned above (plus the fact that the road both sides of the gateway had double yellow lines but the gateway itself did not).

Should I also send the same detailed complaint to NPE?

Many thanks again from a very nervous but angry victim!

Coupon-mad

I think potentially trying the IAS does do harm.  You will lose and feel more on the back foot.

95% of cases heard by a so-called Adjudicator at IAS stage go in favour of the scammer.

Do nothing, except obviously tell them if you move house.

nameavailable

I certainly know what you mean about feeling down if an appeal is lost, but I was worried that the court (if it ends up there) would take a dim view of not trying every opportunity to deal with the matter before it ends up wasting the court's time.

I'm certainly not expecting any of the appeals to the scammers or their 'regulatory bodies' to be successful!