Could someone knowledgeable about conveyancing, Land Registry, or property help?

JJ829

 What am I failing to understand?

 •              My parents bought their home in the 1990s, where it became first registered.

•              They were advised, (albeit now unsure whether rightfully or wrongly), that the neighbouring property had legal rights to occupy a part of the land they were purchasing. Despite this, they were assured they would always retain ownership of the land. Coming from a regular townhouse, they trusted this advice was common for a rural property.

•              The neighbouring property (I’ll call it No. 1) occupied a building, an outbuilding with a toilet, and the only means of rear exit. These were all included in my parents' title but were used/occupied/possessed by No 1.

•              After my parent’s purchase, No. 1 was sold and also became first registered.

•              In the early 2000s, No. 1 demolished its outbuilding, constructed a conservatory over its footprint, and expanded over the hard standing, which was No 1’s only means of rear exit.

•              In 2020, I attempted to purchase No. 1 when it was up for sale. During conveyancing checks, my surveyor & solicitor inform me part of No 1 is not within it’s legal title. I am advised this can only be rectified by a transfer of land or adverse possession. I am told I cannot proceed with the purchase as my mortgage lender would not allow it.  This hindered my mortgage approval, forcing me to withdraw from the purchase.

•              Surprisingly, No. 1 was later sold without any issues. They updated their title plan (to include the land also registered to my parents) and sold the property to new buyers without complications. However, both properties now had overlapping registered land, (In my opinion), due to inaccurate plans/statements submitted to the Land Registry by the seller of No. 1.

•              Despite my parents' efforts, the Land Registry did not rectify the situation, stating that both properties could hold title to the same land due to the general, not legal, boundary being shown on title plans.

The LR amongst other things stated:

There is no mistake in the register of the properties as the red edging still depicts the general and not the legal boundary of the property.

HMLR is not failing to recognise that the land was included in a different title. The title plan of each title shows the general boundary of a property. The documentary title shows the legal title to a property. This is consequently why the property can be included in the red edging of two title plans.

•              Legal advice suggested that the costs involved in resolving this issue, could outweigh the benefits if taken to court.

 

The Land Registry's procedures seem contradictory??

·         If the fundamental purpose of Land Registry title plans, is to provide clarity and an accurate overview of the land being acquired and ensure a smooth process for solicitors, conveyancers, and property purchasers across the UK, how is this possible if they allow two title to have significant overlaps?

·         What’s the point of having title plans and conveyances asking purchasers to check the title plan and boundaries if both properties can include the same land? How do you know the land your buying?

·         If overlaps in titles are allowed then why does the LR have a specific procedure which states if you wish to update your title plan to show the general boundaries more accurately but the land you wish to include falls outside the red edging and within another title then you have to apply to remove that land?

·         My parents have also been left in a no-win position and with a property title that makes absolutely no sense. It will be impossible for them to sell their property as they cannot explain why they share the same title with No 1. There is nothing on their register to explain the significant overlaps in titles.

 

If anyone has the time/patience I can provide further information that might reveal how both properties share/own the same land &/or garden but my initial concern lies in how the Land Registry allows two titles to overlap significantly, creating confusion and hindering property transactions, despite having procedures for boundary updates?

My legal counsel emphasized that this was not a typical boundary dispute but rather required a land transfer or an adverse possession claim for resolution.

Was I advised incorrectly?

 

 

 

user1977

If the discrepancy is about land which your parents don't occupy and never occupied, can't they just amend their title to give up the area in question, and then there's no overlap? Admittedly I don't know the procedure for doing so...

JJ829

Hi User1977,

Thank you for your reply 😊

The main problem with what you suggest is:

·         The Land Registry wrote to say there is no mistake in the register of my parents’ title or that of their neighbour and there is no point in lodging any further application.

My issues with the whole situation are:

·         The Land Registry and my solicitor’s advice were both extremely contradictory. I was forced to back out of a sale (when I maybe didn’t have to)? I am unsure if my solicitor or Land Registry was correct? I realise I have to look on it that my purchase of No 1 was not meant to be for whatever reason, but I can’t help but feel a little bitter (towards my solicitor or the land registry) that after spending money on surveyors/solicitors etc, I am advised I can’t buy but another mortgage purchaser had no problems whatsoever and a smooth purchase?

·         My parents have also been put to huge cost in trying to resolve. The land registry say no mistake but everyone else they have sought advice from can see there is an issue between both titles plans.

·         No-one (including the LR) have fully investigated the pre-deeds. There is information in the pre-deeds that is not present on my parents register even though the land registry was given this on first registration. Maybe it is or isn’t relevant but the pre-deeds show the two properties used to be one and both properties always appear to own and be conveyed the same land.

·         ‘IF’ the Land Registry did remove this land from my parents title, surely this is what should have happened in the very beginning which would have avoided all the costs and hassle thus far?

user1977

This is the procedure note for removing land from a registered title:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/altering-the-register-by-removing-land-from-a-title-plan-pg77/practice-guide-77-altering-the-register-by-removing-land-from-a-title-plan

What's the size of the overlapping land?

Also paging the @Land_Registry rep on the forum in case they want to help.

silvercar

user1977 said:

If the discrepancy is about land which your parents don't occupy and never occupied, can't they just amend their title to give up the area in question, and then there's no overlap? Admittedly I don't know the procedure for doing so...

Why would anyone want to give up land they own? The fact they didn’t occupy it is irrelevant, they could own it and rent it to the neighbours, or allow the neighbour’s use of it without giving up ownership. That the previous neighbour chose to build their conservatory on it, could only add to its value!

user1977

silvercar said:

user1977 said:

If the discrepancy is about land which your parents don't occupy and never occupied, can't they just amend their title to give up the area in question, and then there's no overlap? Admittedly I don't know the procedure for doing so...

Why would anyone want to give up land they own? 

Because it's causing more hassle than it's worth? And if the neighbours also have a registered title to the relevant area (as well as the history of occupancy) then how much leverage do the OP's parents actually have?

JJ829

That's exactly how I feel silvercar and really appreciate your comment. It was only added to the neighbouring title recently. IF this should turn out to be a mistake or a case of adverse possession or whatever it may be, my parents should not have had to pay for the privilege to resolve or ask for the land to be removed because of someone else's mistake if the correct procedures haven't been followed.

To my knowledge, my parents should have received some form of notification to say either the land is being removed because of a mistake or there has been an application of Adverse Possession. In both scenarios, they would have been given the opportunity to respond free of cost and it would have been resolved appropriately. Instead they have been left with a title that is double registered (through no fault of their own) and have been adamantly told there is no mistake by the Land Registry. The size of the overlapping land is approx 10 to 12 square metres. It is a small terraced cottage with small garden so would guestimate this equates/takes up 10% of the outside land/garden. Once again, thank you to both of you, it feels as though it helps ranting about it.

Land_Registry

user1977 said:

This is the procedure note for removing land from a registered title:

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/altering-the-register-by-removing-land-from-a-title-plan-pg77/practice-guide-77-altering-the-register-by-removing-land-from-a-title-plan

What's the size of the overlapping land?

Also paging the @Land_Registry rep on the forum in case they want to help.

I suspect there’s nothing I can usefully add here as HMLR will have responded to any specific enquiries or applications already. 

The only comments to make would be very general ones and I doubt if they would help the OP as they are looking for wider comments 
my main observation is around the ‘significant overlap’ and later ‘10 to 12 square metres’ which would be a very significant overlap and the advice given re transfer or adverse possession claim would hold true. 

If OP wishes to share the title number(s) then happy to offer a wider comment to help others but as mentioned I don’t think that’s what the OP wants or needs here as they’ll have read our perspective already 

JJ829

Hi Land_Registry,

I do believe there are comments you will be able to add, that would not only be very useful to myself but to every other customer of HMLR.

For privacy reasons, I do not wish to publish title numbers but I have attached the title plans of the two properties I refer to in my OP.

As an official company representative of Land Registry, please may I pose the following ‘general’ questions to you:

 

·         If any overlaps similar to this situation (as attached) are discovered by any of your clients, should this be a concern that need addressing?

·         What would your advice to them be?

·         Considering the Land Registry has a specific procedure that mandates applying for the removal of land when updating general boundaries, if the area to include lies beyond the red edging, why is there a requirement for this process if overlaps of such nature are not considered problematic?

·         Moreover, if these overlaps aren't deemed problematic, what purpose do title plans serve? Why do prospective buyers across the country have to verify that the boundaries align with the plan if the possibility of overlapping areas exists? How can a buyer ascertain the accurate extent of the property they intend to purchase if overlaps are present?

·         It would be beneficial to inquire why the Land Registry allows such overlaps to occur on title plans, as surely these situations only lead to significant confusion and uncertainty for property buyers and owners?

I appreciate your acknowledgement of my post.

Thank you

JJ829

Thank you so very much user1977 for paging @Land_Registry rep on the forum for me. That was really kind of you and fingers crossed, they may hopefully be able to add some useful comments.

Land_Registry

Thanks for sharing and I understand not sharing the specific title numbers although you could have sent a DM

In very general terms your 4 pics don’t cover it as you’ve shown 2 orig title plans and just one updated one. The 4th image is just your own it seems to point out the referred to overlap/double registered part. Or by implication are you saying your parents title plan is still as was/is shown? 

If any overlaps similar to this situation (as attached) are discovered by any of your clients, should this be a concern that need addressing?

·         What would your advice to them be? - query it 

·         Considering the Land Registry has a specific procedure that mandates applying for the removal of land when updating general boundaries, if the area to include lies beyond the red edging, why is there a requirement for this process if overlaps of such nature are not considered problematic? Every supination is considered on merit and the specific procedure won’t apply to all. There are a number of ways boundaries are dealt with from a registration perspective. Generalisations work best re general boundaries but usually require more where overlaps exist or boundaries on the ground are disputed 

·         Moreover, if these overlaps aren't deemed problematic, what purpose do title plans serve? Why do prospective buyers across the country have to verify that the boundaries align with the plan if the possibility of overlapping areas exists? How can a buyer ascertain the accurate extent of the property they intend to purchase if overlaps are present? Problematic is subjective and what’s ok for say an owner or HMLR doesn’t make it ok for all. A buyer is asked to look at the title plan and compare it what’s on the ground/being sold. If there’s an issue it’s raised with the seller and resolved as appropriate

·         It would be beneficial to inquire why the Land Registry allows such overlaps to occur on title plans, as surely these situations only lead to significant confusion and uncertainty for property buyers and owners? Generally speaking we don’t but general comments count for zero here. Your scenario is specific to a real scenario and without title numbers any general comments are really worthless as all you have is a discussion without much merit. 

That’s not a criticism but simply an observation that this type of general discussion is very unlikely to have a eureka or silver bullet moment without specifics. In my experience, and not with regards your specific scenario, the devil is always in such detail and without that detail very little can be gained. 

I hope you, your parents and neighbour find a solution here