Could someone knowledgeable about conveyancing, Land Registry, or property help?

JJ829

Thank you Land_Registry, I have sent a DM with the title numbers. Yes my parents title plan is still that shown in the top left. The current neighbouring Title plan is now bottom left. Hopefully with the title numbers you may be able to provide more specifics and for anyone else here following the post or in a similar situation. Thanks again.

anselld

Quite apart from the neighbour at number 1 why has your parent's house grown on the other boundary as compared with the original?  Do they have the same problem in reverse on the other boundary?

JJ829

Hi anselld, yes it does appear that way but that is not the case. The bottom right plan is purely an OS map an not my parents title. The top right is my parents title from the 1990's which is the same today. Hope this makes sense.

Land_Registry

Thank you for sharing the title numbers OP via a DM 
I can see, and have explained to the OP, that there has been extensive correspondence between the title holder and HMLR senior technicians/lawyers over the boundary issue and more. The HMLR and property owner’s position has been explained at length and there’s nothing useful that I can add to the thread or request for help. 

Clearly a difficult and complex scenario for the property owner but one where the options already shared namely, transfer/adverse possession and legal advice, are the best way forward. 

JJ829

Hello Land_Registry,

I am aware there have been communications between the property owners and the Land Registry. Although HMLR and property owner’s position may have been explained at length I lack this all this detailed information on the complex matters you mention.

I was reaching out as a separate customer, having previously considered buying one of the properties.

I'm keen on seeking clarification without delving into overly complex/separate aspects that might be challenging for me to grasp.

My aim is to ask straightforward questions that any Land Registry customer could easily comprehend and gain a better understanding.

During my attempted purchase, I received the attached title plan (top left I posted on the thread). As you commented, my legal counsel conveyed similar statements regarding a transfer or adverse possession claim, which halted my purchase.

(At that time, there was no overlap).

I'm curious about how the subsequent buyer managed to proceed without a transfer/removal of land or adverse possession application. If any HMLR customer wants their title plan changing to include land that is not currently within its registered and the land they want added is already registered to another HMLR customer, I'm eager to know what other Land Registry procedure my solicitor could/should have suggested that would have allowed my purchase to proceed without hindrance?

Out of curiosity, the options of, transfer/adverse possession already shared by you (and my solicitor),  generally speaking, how & why would No 1 now apply for a transfer of land or adverse possession if the land is now within its legal registered title? Any solicitor/conveyancer will see the land is within its title, so there is no issue?

Similarly, why would the adjoining property do anything if there has been numerous correspondence with HMLR who state there is no mistake and the land is also within its legal registered title?

Why would the Land Registry ask customers to seek legal advice at huge cost if there is no mistake and both properties can have title to the same land?

What would the Land Registry’s advice be to any current/future owner or conveyancer of No 1 who would now be completely oblivious to any issue of overlap on their title?

Thank you for your time and assistance in helping me understand better.

Land_Registry

JJ829 said:

Hello Land_Registry,

I am aware there have been communications between the property owners and the Land Registry. Although HMLR and property owner’s position may have been explained at length I lack this all this detailed information on the complex matters you mention.

I was reaching out as a separate customer, having previously considered buying one of the properties.

I'm keen on seeking clarification without delving into overly complex/separate aspects that might be challenging for me to grasp.

My aim is to ask straightforward questions that any Land Registry customer could easily comprehend and gain a better understanding.

During my attempted purchase, I received the attached title plan (top left I posted on the thread). As you commented, my legal counsel conveyed similar statements regarding a transfer or adverse possession claim, which halted my purchase.

(At that time, there was no overlap).

I'm curious about how the subsequent buyer managed to proceed without a transfer/removal of land or adverse possession application. If any HMLR customer wants their title plan changing to include land that is not currently within its registered and the land they want added is already registered to another HMLR customer, I'm eager to know what other Land Registry procedure my solicitor could/should have suggested that would have allowed my purchase to proceed without hindrance?

Out of curiosity, the options of, transfer/adverse possession already shared by you (and my solicitor),  generally speaking, how & why would No 1 now apply for a transfer of land or adverse possession if the land is now within its legal registered title? Any solicitor/conveyancer will see the land is within its title, so there is no issue?

Similarly, why would the adjoining property do anything if there has been numerous correspondence with HMLR who state there is no mistake and the land is also within its legal registered title?

Why would the Land Registry ask customers to seek legal advice at huge cost if there is no mistake and both properties can have title to the same land?

What would the Land Registry’s advice be to any current/future owner or conveyancer of No 1 who would now be completely oblivious to any issue of overlap on their title?

Thank you for your time and assistance in helping me understand better.

Apologies as your OP referenced your parents owning one of the properties so I assumed you were privy to the lengthy and detailed correspondence that has taken place re the boundaries and the parts of the buildings/rights of way that all impact on the issues faced. 

Buyers are invariably bound by their lender requirements and one lender/mortgage product will vary from another re risk profile for example. 

Your conveyancer couldn’t have suggested a change to the title plan as the situation re the registered general boundaries and OS detail had already been explained/discussed as part of the other changes already made. 

I’m sure your solicitor can explain why your purchase couldn’t proceed. Nobody else can. 

Both properties can have title but either can seek to apply to alter/amend the title together with supporting evidence such as appropriate. 

To understand the thinking involved, even tough your purchase fell through, I would recommend applying for official copies of the correspondence that took place 
Legal advice is always recommended as any claim or attempt to amend/alter the registered title relies initially on the law to support any claim/assertion and may well require legal discussions with the other landowner and their own legal advisor. 

We wouldn’t give any advice to a buyer who was oblivious of the issues. Responsibility rests with the buyer and their lender to consider the reality on the ground, the registered information and any risks they identify. We provide the registered information to support the conveyancing/lending process. We don’t advise on it. 

JJ829

Much appreciated………the main thing I am aware of/understand of the situation is my parents had a response from the Land Registry to say they (The LR) are of the firm view that, as there is no mistake in the register of their title and indeed that of the neighbour, there is no point in lodging a further application as envisaged in their lengthy and detailed correspondence you refer to.

I’m sure you will agree this completely contradicts your much valued advice that either party can seek to apply to alter/amend the title together with supporting evidence such as appropriate.

Land_Registry

JJ829 said:

Much appreciated………the main thing I am aware of/understand of the situation is my parents had a response from the Land Registry to say they (The LR) are of the firm view that, as there is no mistake in the register of their title and indeed that of the neighbour, there is no point in lodging a further application as envisaged in their lengthy and detailed correspondence you refer to.

I’m sure you will agree this completely contradicts your much valued advice that either party can seek to apply to alter/amend the title together with supporting evidence such as appropriate.

My commentary here is largely a general one. The contradiction you refer to exists as the other response was a very specific response to a very specific issue/correspondence 

silvercar

"  In 2020, I attempted to purchase No. 1 when it was up for sale. During conveyancing checks, my surveyor & solicitor inform me part of No 1 is not within it’s legal title. I am advised this can only be rectified by a transfer of land or adverse possession. I am told I cannot proceed with the purchase as my mortgage lender would not allow it.  This hindered my mortgage approval, forcing me to withdraw from the purchase."

This happened to us once. The property then sold. It would have either been because the new buyer didn't need a mortgage or because their lender didn't have an issue or it was one that an indemnity policy could solve the lender's concern. Remember also that some lenders don't like people buying properties adjacent to another property owned by themselves or family members, so that could have impacted your lender's view.

 Surprisingly, No. 1 was later sold without any issues. They updated their title plan (to include the land also registered to my parents) and sold the property to new buyers without complications. However, both properties now had overlapping registered land, (In my opinion), due to inaccurate plans/statements submitted to the Land Registry by the seller of No. 1.

Maybe they weren't totally honest as to the lay of the land. Possibly your parents were involved but can't recall the details. Maybe the LR wrote to your parents and your parents didn't respond, so the change was made without their involvement.

JJ829

Thank you, so a very final question if I may…..

If I understand everything you’ve said correctly, the advice given (generally speaking) would be true for most similar scenarios but for some (unknown/lengthy/complex) reason the general advice does not and can’t apply to the specific situation I referred to…

Therefore, if I have interpreted that correctly, there really is no other option other than for the property owners to seek legal advice.

 

Thank You also Silvercar,

My mortgage had already been approved so there was no problem there. I completely agree when you mention if the new buyer didn’t need a mortgage. That’s exactly what my solicitor said to me. They said if I was a cash buyer, I would have still been able to purchase, but it wouldn’t have been advisable to do so.

I believe the new buyers had the same issue as myself as they were unable to proceed. However, when the title plan was updated, the sale was able to then go ahead without any issue. I am aware, the new buyers/current owners had/have no idea there was/still is a problem to address. It seems unfair that they weren’t made aware of this.

As you say, an indemnity policy could have played some part, I just really would have thought my solicitor could have suggested this to me. Again, the new owners appear to be completely unaware of the prior/current issue. At the end of the day, as the land is also in their title, it’s completely understandable they don’t see any need to do anything that would result in unwanted costs.

Th LR, have & did confirm that no letters, notification were ever sent to my parents.