Capital One credit card Direct Debit payment not debited from Current Account

born_again

Only adjustment you can do at your bank end is cancel a DD.

Only Company taking funds can set up a DD, Standing Order can be set up on your own account.

OP says Barclays told him/her/them that Capital One had not sought permission to collect the DD

Then that can only mean that DD was not set up. But they would be able to see that online or app & list of DD's
Could be related to amending it, as some cancel & restart DD as that is how their systems work. If not set up in time & for some that means will not take a payment till next month, so a manual payment needs to be made.

MSE_ForumTeam5

Threads merged

dreaMer001

born_again said:

Only adjustment you can do at your bank end is cancel a DD.

Only Company taking funds can set up a DD, Standing Order can be set up on your own account.

OP says Barclays told him/her/them that Capital One had not sought permission to collect the DD

Then that can only mean that DD was not set up. But they would be able to see that online or app & list of DD's
Could be related to amending it, as some cancel & restart DD as that is how their systems work. If not set up in time & for some that means will not take a payment till next month, so a manual payment needs to be made.

This highlighted part in your post cannot apply in my case as my statement said "Your Direct Debit payment of £1,306.94 will be taken on or after 14 November 23.". That is the acid test to confirm that the DD is setup or amended. Actually, credit card providers tell customers continue to pay manually "until you see the DD confirmation on your statement". I've followed this advice to the letter. There is nothing more I could've done!!

Catsacor said:

dreaMer001 said:

born_again said:

Would have better to stay in old thread.
Who did you amend the DD with? As that is your point of contact. Which should have been CC provider.

One thing you have not mentioned on the reversal, is were there enough funds in the Current Account to cover the debit?

I always setup and amend on the cc provider side. Are you sure it can be done on the bank side too?

I wouldn't say 'not my fault' if there was not enough funds to cover the debit! Anyway, even if there wasn't enough funds, halifax wouldn've informed me a Direct Debit was returned due to insufficient funds! One time, a while ago I seem to recall them contacting me via SMS to tell me there was insufficient funds in account to pay a DD, ensure there is sufficient funds before  x:xx PM as the DD will be retried later. 

Seems Capital One is notorious for Direct Debit problems since far back as year 2010. I've just come across this thread:
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2647425/capital-one-direct-debit-problem

OP says Barclays told him/her/them that Capital One had not sought permission to collect the DD. Other members experiencing unpaid DD's, charges due to the missed payments etc. They've even switched to manual payment due to the problems. 

I always set up any DD from the bank account it will be debited from.
It's your current account that releases it on to the receiving account.

Are you sure that's not a standing order? I cannot see information on halifax bank website about setting up a direct debit from the bank side to pay a credit card of another bank/provider. The option is only available when the credit card to be paid is a halifax credit card. 

Furthermore, the directdebit.co.uk website says this: 

"Setting up a Direct Debit

How do I set up a Direct Debit?

You fill in a Direct Debit Instruction directly with the company that you are paying for goods or services. That can be over the phone, online, or in writing. The organisation sends your Instruction – sometimes called a mandate - to your bank or building society, so they know you have authorised payments to be collected from your account to them.".

If a direct debit can also be setup directly with my bank then the above information is incomplete!

dreaMer001

Update: Long story short, both financial institutions have refused to take responsibility!

I first complained to capitol one. They were dragging their feet, so while waiting I asked the support folks at the directdebit.co.uk website. They advised me to complain to the bank (Halifax). So, I complained to halifax. This is the gist of the Halifax Bank response: 

"I can confirm that we have no record, of a Direct Debit to Capital One, on your account ending

YYYY. I have also checked your four other current accounts and there is no record of a Direct Debit

to them, on there either.

I can also confirm I checked your account and there are no markers or notes to suggest, we would

block an attempt from them, to set up the payment.

Way forward

Despite the explanation above, I appreciate your frustration, however the quickest solution, is to

forward this response onto Capital One where possible, to restore any financial relationship with

them, where necessary."

I forwarded the letter to capital one while they were investigating. Capital one has responded saying this:

"Your complaint

As we understand it, you’re unhappy that your Direct Debit didn’t claim as you’d expected. 

Our investigation 

As part of our investigation, we looked into the communications we sent you. We reviewed your account statements and the emails sent.

We understand that your Direct Debit details were changed on 01 October 2023. An email was sent regarding this on 02 October 2023. In the email, we’d let you know that the change to your Direct Debit details has been successful.

We attempted to claim the Direct Debit on 14 November 2023 but was returned unpaid by your bank as they don’t have your instruction or authority of setting up the Direct Debit. We sent you an email on 16 November 2023 to let you know that your Direct Debit had been cancelled. 

While we understand that you’d sent in the letter you received from your HALIFAX bank on this, the letter did indicate they didn’t have a record of your Direct Debit with them.

We’re sorry that your Direct Debit was returned unpaid, the right process was however followed by Capital One in processing it. We’re sorry for the anxiety you’d experienced while waiting for the Direct Debit to claim.

Our decision

Having completed a full investigation, we’re not upholding your complaint. 

We’re not upholding your complaint regarding your Direct Debit that didn’t claim. As mentioned above, it was returned unpaid with the response that your bank doesn’t have your instruction regarding it.

We do recognise that this might not be the outcome you’d hoped for, we’re sorry for any inconvenience and distress this might have caused you."

The good news is, I've setup hundreds of Direct Debit's over the years and this is probably the first (as far as I remember) occasion this has happened. Don't know if it's specific to amending a Direct Debit, because I tend to do that much less than setting up new Direct Debits. As I say, cannot tell for sure. I only mention it because I happen to read another member's post on these forums saying that amending DD's can sometimes cause issues, so we should always cancel, then setup from scratch. Although, after this happened I've recently amended a DD with another Credit card provider and there were no issues with that. I may decide to go the safe route from here on. 

The bad news is that when this happens, neither financial institution seems own up or share the responsibility! Definite elephant in the room. I will be complaining to the financial ombudsman service (FOS). One thing that strikes me with the Capital One response is the sheer obnoxiousness. It's almost as if they are challenging me to take it to the FOS as they are already aware what the outcome will be. A final response on a previous complaint had the same tone. Maybe they have someone on the inside of the FOS or they are aware that FOS have a soft spot for them!

Btw, the OP of the thread I referred to previously: 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2647425/capital-one-direct-debit-problem

says this:

"On phoning Barclays, they've told him they refused to pay the DD as Cap 1 had not sought permission to collect the DD, they just did (i.e. the 10 working days required to set up a new instruction.)"

In my case, Cap1 has said '[my bank] doesn't have [my] instruction regarding it'. Unfortunately, for Cap1 I do still have the statement from the them (Cap1) that says 'Your Direct Debit payment of £1,306.94 will be taken on or after 14 November 23". I also have screenshots of my amending the Direct Debit and an email from Cap1 saying 'The change to your Direct Debit has been successful.'. All this evidence will be forwarded to the FOS. Lets see how strong the FOS soft spot is!

born_again

dreaMer001 said:

Update: Long story short, both financial institutions have refused to take responsibility!

I first complained to capitol one. They were dragging their feet, so while waiting I asked the support folks at the directdebit.co.uk website. They advised me to complain to the bank (Halifax). So, I complained to halifax. This is the gist of the Halifax Bank response: 

"I can confirm that we have no record, of a Direct Debit to Capital One, on your account ending

YYYY. I have also checked your four other current accounts and there is no record of a Direct Debit

to them, on there either.

I can also confirm I checked your account and there are no markers or notes to suggest, we would

block an attempt from them, to set up the payment.

Way forward

Despite the explanation above, I appreciate your frustration, however the quickest solution, is to

forward this response onto Capital One where possible, to restore any financial relationship with

them, where necessary."

I forwarded the letter to capital one while they were investigating. Capital one has responded saying this:

"Your complaint

As we understand it, you’re unhappy that your Direct Debit didn’t claim as you’d expected. 

Our investigation 

As part of our investigation, we looked into the communications we sent you. We reviewed your account statements and the emails sent.

We understand that your Direct Debit details were changed on 01 October 2023. An email was sent regarding this on 02 October 2023. In the email, we’d let you know that the change to your Direct Debit details has been successful.

We attempted to claim the Direct Debit on 14 November 2023 but was returned unpaid by your bank as they don’t have your instruction or authority of setting up the Direct Debit. We sent you an email on 16 November 2023 to let you know that your Direct Debit had been cancelled. 

While we understand that you’d sent in the letter you received from your HALIFAX bank on this, the letter did indicate they didn’t have a record of your Direct Debit with them.

We’re sorry that your Direct Debit was returned unpaid, the right process was however followed by Capital One in processing it. We’re sorry for the anxiety you’d experienced while waiting for the Direct Debit to claim.

Our decision

Having completed a full investigation, we’re not upholding your complaint. 

We’re not upholding your complaint regarding your Direct Debit that didn’t claim. As mentioned above, it was returned unpaid with the response that your bank doesn’t have your instruction regarding it.

We do recognise that this might not be the outcome you’d hoped for, we’re sorry for any inconvenience and distress this might have caused you."

The good news is, I've setup hundreds of Direct Debit's over the years and this is probably the first (as far as I remember) occasion this has happened. Don't know if it's specific to amending a Direct Debit, because I tend to do that much less than setting up new Direct Debits. As I say, cannot tell for sure. I only mention it because I happen to read another member's post on these forums saying that amending DD's can sometimes cause issues, so we should always cancel, then setup from scratch. Although, after this happened I've recently amended a DD with another Credit card provider and there were no issues with that. I may decide to go the safe route from here on. 

The bad news is that when this happens, neither financial institution seems own up or share the responsibility! Definite elephant in the room. I will be complaining to the financial ombudsman service (FOS). One thing that strikes me with the Capital One response is the sheer obnoxiousness. It's almost as if they are challenging me to take it to the FOS as they are already aware what the outcome will be. A final response on a previous complaint had the same tone. Maybe they have someone on the inside of the FOS or they are aware that FOS have a soft spot for them!

Btw, the OP of the thread I referred to previously: 
https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/2647425/capital-one-direct-debit-problem

says this:

"On phoning Barclays, they've told him they refused to pay the DD as Cap 1 had not sought permission to collect the DD, they just did (i.e. the 10 working days required to set up a new instruction.)"

In my case, Cap1 has said '[my bank] doesn't have [my] instruction regarding it'. Unfortunately, for Cap1 I do still have the statement from the them (Cap1) that says 'Your Direct Debit payment of £1,306.94 will be taken on or after 14 November 23". I also have screenshots of my amending the Direct Debit and an email from Cap1 saying 'The change to your Direct Debit has been successful.'. All this evidence will be forwarded to the FOS. Lets see how strong the FOS soft spot is!

Halifax have nothing to do with DD set up etc. Only way they would do anything with a DD would be if you do not have the funds to pay it, then you would get a message about that & a time frame to pay into account so they could pay it later in the day.

So who is the DD set up with?
Halifax or Barclays? 
Either way, neither of them have anything to do with set up, that is all Cap Ones responsibility.

dreaMer001

Made two separate complaints to the Financial Ombudsman Service (FOS) about Halifax Bank and Capital One.

The one about Halifax wasn't found in my favour. However, with the Capital One complaint the investigator found in my favour but there were some unanswered questions, so I asked an Ombudsman to review. 

Here is a summary of the Ombudsman's review:

"1) I don’t think Capital One acted entirely fairly and reasonably from the outset.

2) Mr N asked for £100 as compensation and Capital One offered that once the complaint came here – if the amount hasn’t been paid it should pay this now.

3) Capital One has explained what happened in its internal process, and I think that’s fair. It has

explained why the direct debit was cancelled due to the period of inactivity and I think that’s

reasonable. Also, it confirmed (noted above) its approach to potential reoccurrence. So, I

think when Capital One made the offer it acted fairly. Prior to that point – before the

complaint came to this service, I don’t think it had done enough to resolve the issues for

Mr N. That’s why this case is upheld.".

Read the full Capital One Ombudsman decision here:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-5071175.pdf

After both complaints were done and dusted I noticed (because I had the case file access documents and a response of a Subject Access request) that Capital One had said in their submissions to the FOS:

"Unfortunately, I'm not able to determine exactly what Mr N’s final question is. If he is referencing how Capital

One becomes aware of Direct Debit inactivity, we’re either notified by the customers bank (which hasn’t occurred), or, as mentioned above it would usually flag on a report due to inactivity. As neither of these were done we didn’t become aware till we tried to claim the Direct Debit and it was reversed as ‘no instruction’.".

Oddly enough, in the Halifax Bank Complaint Ombudsman decision there isn't any explanation (or any mention at all) about why Halifax hadn't notified Capital One. According to Capital One that was something that should've happened. Either the Ombudsman handling the Halifax complaint didn't address this (because they were agreeing with the Investigator opinion) or she felt it was not relevant, so chose to not mention it at all in the decision.

Read the full Halifax Bank Ombudsman Decision here : https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/decision/DRN-4986864.pdf