Apcoa "penalty" on railway station car park

Coupon-mad

I'd have put in the PPC's phone number.

DjangoUnchained

yes, wish i thought of that at the time.

DjangoUnchained

As expected, apcoa have rejected my appeal, quoting bye-laws.as follows.

In response to your comments, we can confirm that this Penalty Notice was not issued under the conditions laid out in the

Protection of Freedoms Act (POFA) 2012.

Please note, this is a Penalty Notice issued on Railway land as a breach of the terms and conditions of parking has

occurred, and you have confirmed to us that you are the registered keeper of the vehicle in question and therefore you are

liable for this Notice.

The Railways byelaws state:

In England and Wales

(i) The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance

used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be

liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

For further clarification, the owner, in relation to a vehicle, means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which in the case

of a vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22) is presumed to be the person in whose

name the vehicle is registered. If the Penalty Notice remains unpaid, APCOA Parking is entitled to pursue you as the keeper

through the Magistrates Court by way of a private criminal prosecution for payment of the Penalty Notice.

I dont understand if this is correct or not. Ive looked up the bye-laws and it seems they can make the owner or keeper liable? 
Is it worth bothering to do a popla appeal or should i just now ignore everything unless a LBC arrives.?

Umkomaas

Ive looked up the bye-laws and it seems they can make the owner or keeper liable?

I can't find the term 'keeper' mentioned anywhere in the byelaws. 'Keeper' is not guaranteed to be the 'Owner', even the DVLA say that on the vehicle's V5C. 

If the Penalty Notice remains unpaid, APCOA Parking is entitled to pursue you as the keeper through the Magistrates Court by way of a private criminal prosecution for payment of the Penalty Notice

They cannot. That is a misrepresentation of authority and worthy of a complaint to the BPA. Do that via the BPA website. Only the Train Operating Company can prosecute via the Mags. If you're up for giving APCOA a kicking, go back and challenge them with a snotty letter:

Dear APCOA

Unequivocally, the Penalty Notice will remain unpaid, therefore please serve private criminal prosecution proceedings without delay so your entitlement to do so can be tested. Please confirm that you are the Train Operating Company.

Yours sincerely

I wouldn't waste any energy on POPLA because they have, erroneously, been siding with APCOA on byelaws cases saying they are entitled to assume the keeper is the owner - BS!  But if you do go through POPLA and lose, just ignore APCOA, they won't take things any further. Same goes with just ignoring them totally, they might huff, but they've no puff.

DjangoUnchained

Yes, it doesnt mention the term keeper but it does go on about vehicle registration act and the person by whom the vehicle is kept presumed to be the name of the person the vehicle is registered to.
Is it worth doing popla anyway just to waste their time and cause them more expense, obviously if when i lose i just ignore then onwards?

Coupon-mad

Yes and do it all ON THE LAST DAY because this penalty times out after just 6 months.

Do it slowly. You'll soon reach 6 months.

KeithP

DjangoUnchained said:

The Railways byelaws state:

(i) The owner of any motor vehicle, bicycle or other conveyance used, left or placed in breach of Byelaw 14(1) to 14(3) may be liable to pay a penalty as displayed in that area.

For further clarification, the owner, in relation to a vehicle, means the person by whom the vehicle is kept, which in the case of a vehicle registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c. 22) is presumed to be the person in whose name the vehicle is registered.

Have a look at your vehicle's Registration Document.
Mine has this banner across the front...

No presumption needed.
I have not even bothered to look up that other Act, but I would place money on them misquoting it.

DjangoUnchained

Coupon-mad said:

Yes and do it all ON THE LAST DAY because this penalty times out after just 6 months.

Do it slowly. You'll soon reach 6 months.

How do you find out what the last day is?. the letter says 28 days from date of this letter and the popla website says 28 days from the date of appeal rejection?

Umkomaas

DjangoUnchained said:

Coupon-mad said:

Yes and do it all ON THE LAST DAY because this penalty times out after just 6 months.

Do it slowly. You'll soon reach 6 months.

How do you find out what the last day is?. the letter says 28 days from date of this letter and the popla website says 28 days from the date of appeal rejection?

Do it a couple of days before any absolute available deadline - just don't respond 'by return'. If you get into some email tennis with them (asking them perhaps to explain something they've written, or some similar banal question) then when they respond, give it as long as you feel comfortable (bearing in mind you need to drag this out), go back and ask them for further explanation or add another question. There's no prescribed timetable (other than getting to 6 months), nor is there any guarantee they will play ball, just give it a go.  Nothing to fear from the process. 

DjangoUnchained

Umkomaas said:

DjangoUnchained said:

Coupon-mad said:

Yes and do it all ON THE LAST DAY because this penalty times out after just 6 months.

Do it slowly. You'll soon reach 6 months.

How do you find out what the last day is?. the letter says 28 days from date of this letter and the popla website says 28 days from the date of appeal rejection?

Do it a couple of days before any absolute available deadline - just don't respond 'by return'. If you get into some email tennis with them (asking them perhaps to explain something they've written, or some similar banal question) then when they respond, give it as long as you feel comfortable (bearing in mind you need to drag this out), go back and ask them for further explanation or add another question. There's no prescribed timetable (other than getting to 6 months), nor is there any guarantee they will play ball, just give it a go.  Nothing to fear from the process. 

im really confused. How do i get into email tennis with them as they say i have to appeal to popla. When i do this at what stage do i start asking questions? surely they just comment on my popla statement and once the decision is made why would they answer anything i ask them? really not understanding this now. And why do i bother if they cant take me to court anyway?