High EOn.Next tariff?

willowanne

Scot_39 said:

Many old "dumb" night storage heaters only had 1 power supply.   That charged off peak using a single connection - often for convenience switched at off-peak times by the meter itself.

Your new meter should be doing that on it's 5th port - at the times stated - if the quantums are dual wired.

They would then if an old for new replacement - needed a live feed added - to power the fan (iirc c11W) and the little control panel (0.5W) - and the boost heater if selected by user.

(They have a mode where they can work like - at larger sizes - a 1kW fan heater off of the live supply as well)

But unlike many other similar modern heaters - the Dimplex can also be wired - off of live feed only.

And you then have to ensure programmed charge times match the meters.

See page 8 - figs 10a,10b of installation manual - and if you haven't been given a copy by installers - download a copy of the user guide

https://product-portal.gdhv.com/sites/default/files/2023-08/Quantum G10 Installation User Instructions - Issue 5.pdf

See list at

https://www.dimplex.co.uk/product/quantum-rf-hhr-storage-heater#manuals

But if you do get an electrcian back - ask him to explain - how he or previous installtion team has configured it.  (There have been posts of HA installing them and not really properly explaining or leaving manuals etc - a poor show as often - they are fitting them in non tach savy OAP type households)

Because if you ever want to use heat during BST - and they are single wired - and are in fact on E10 - it may need the settings changed by an hour in Oct / Mar etc.

PS In theory your new meter 100A Led tells you when the off-peak circuits are active - if you have convenient access - if you cannot tell from the spurs driving your NSH or HW immersion (some have red LEDs others don't)

I think my storage heaters, bedroom heaters and heated towel rail in the bathroom get completely switched off by the meter when the peak times kick in. At these times there's no power when I try to switch on the heaters - there's a red light where the cable goes into the wall and it stays off too. This will be a problem as I have a disabled person at home who will need their heater to work when it starts to get cold. They are in all day. Can an electrician look at that or is that an EON.Next issue? 

Spoonie_Turtle

willowanne said:

Scot_39 said:

If the fitted meter was Smart - chances are EOn Next would be issuing monthly statements - incuding that months usage billed - to the customer.

EOn however at one stage were billing me every 6m, every 3m, then appeared to jump in sync with Ofgem caps - beforre moved to EOn Next.

And one of the bills above had multiple customer readings - 2 intermediate in the nominal Ofgem 3m update period - on it - on the one bill - so god knows what their "dumb meter" standard is.

But that new old (thats 02 2013 check sticker ?) meter doesn't appear to have a comms hub

https://www.landisgyr.com/webfoo/wp-content/uploads/product-files/5246_Technical_Specification11.pdf

The meter is not a SMART meter - I can't get one because of the HA, I think. Its just a digital meter that allows peak/off peak because the flat has storage heaters. This is as far as I know. 

That shouldn't be the case - unless perhaps your tenancy says so, but even then I don't know whether that would legally be enforcible.

We're in a HA property and changed our meter recently; we've been told our tenancy prohibits storing things in the loft (!!!) but nothing about what meter we have.

Though for you having Economy 10 wiring that can sometimes complicate getting a new meter.

Netexporter

Landlords can't stop you changing supplier. As suppliers are responsible for supplying/maintaining the meter then there is no reason why you can't have a smart meter.

Scot_39

It's the HA / electrician responsibility - anything internal to house is.

EOn Next only look over part of the meter cabinet - and your billing.

Unlike old NSH = HHR panels like the dimplex need power 24/7 - for the fan to circulate the charged stored heat.

It appears you can see the switched power supply - but not the live feed - but it may be entering elsewhere - e.g. from below.  But if they are truly dead except at off-peak - thats an installation fault. 

(Albeit one that might have been created by the meter change. But you said 2 were never working before anyway - so fear not).

If the Dimplex has been single wired - that needs to be from the 24/7 live output and the associated section of the consumer unit.  As it says in bold on the above install guide page for single wiring

"Note! Do not connect to existing off peak wiring, unless the supply to
these circuits is permanently live!"

That may sound silly - but essentially what it should really have said - is unless the connectins to the old off peak wiring have been moved to the permanently live side of the consumer unit (if not in fact the whole of the old off peak consumer unit wired to the meter 4th port ouput and a seperate timer fitted to the HW immersion heater).

And then they should have configured a set of charge periods to match meter (and potentially - not 100% sure here - so any Quantum owners out there ? - reconfigure the timings for BST / GMT. IIRC the as shipped default is charge 24/7)

As per install manual

"Available fixed charge times must be manually programmed into the heater to tell it when to charge; no external timers or contactors are needed. Up-to 4 digital charge times can be set"

And as per user manual - see installation checklist for single mode - in some versions of manuals - e.g.

https://product-portal.gdhv.com/sites/default/files/2023-01/Quantum G9 Installation User Instructions - Issue 2.pdf

And note the warning they may need to be changed if off peak timings change.

I can see no justification for the other heaters not to be available 24/7 - even if that means they cost more to run - if not on own timers.  I have bedroom panel heaters - with timers - but never use them, and simple pull cord manual kitchen and bathroom fan heaters - all will work 24/7 if switched on.

After all one of the many reasons they might be needed - is if the charge in the NSH is insufficient to heat those spaces enough.

(But curiously there was a version of one of the Scottish power tariffs that had a third class of devices on a seperate meter feed circuit - charged at another rate - but then that was 24.7 live - only the rate differed from normal sockets - and only certain devices - like room fires could be wired onto it.

Which I only mention - because when I was on Heatiwse - my house / consumer unit was split 3 ways - normal, HW only and NSH only - and when E10 single metering replaced dual metering - the HW only and NSH Only - were joined in the meter cabinet - from the common switched supply - your 5th port)

I would get onto the housing asssociation ASAP.

Scot_39

@Gerry1

I don't have Quantums yet - but i did ask Dimplex support about E10 when I got a quote a few years back.

And that's not as I understand it for E10.  I'd forgoten the detail - as decided dual wiring safest.

But a quick scan through the manuals again - and state the Quantum has 4 off peak charging windows - start and end - so 4 off peak periods - 8 (4 on 4 off) not just 4 switching times.

And E10 only needs 3 in my area - maybe 2 in some regions as split 5+5 over 2 off-peak periods - and because OP's evening period straddles midnight - even think 4 would be OK.

See e7 timing example on page 33 of

https://product-portal.gdhv.com/sites/default/files/2023-01/Quantum G9 Installation User Instructions - Issue 2.pdf

As long as op - or the installer - sets them to match - even allowing for one stradling midnight - I think he is propbably OK - with the 4

So 00:00 - 00:30, 04:30 - 07:30, 13:00 - 16:00 and 20:30 - 23:59  should work based on the meter sticker - if the OP wants them to charge upto all 10 hours - and that page 33 E7 straddling example.

My 3 dumb NSH seldom charge for much more than 1-1:30 hours in winter once warmed from cold - on each of the 3 off peak slots.  My bills wold be hideous if they charged 10 hrs x 7kW = 70kWh per day or 2100 kWh per month in winter.

But limitting the charge windows might not be a brilliant idea as far the auto adaptive algorithm goes according to another post here - so who knows.

And

EOn do offer E10 - at least to their legacy tariff customers - if not any new - my current rates in EM region are now c35p and c18p.  The off-peak traditionally has been over 4p more than the regional E7 figures based on what i saw I saw posted here in Jan. Not sure their E7 rates here from Oct 1st.

But am not sure if OP has been moved onto E10 - or like above bills - SR - the "to Sep 10" sections use same c28p rates.

willowanne

So, I’ve no idea about how the heaters are wired up - they were put in a few years ago and a new fuse box system was installed in the meter cupboard. I was at work when all this happened. I’ve not had E7 for many years as I was recommended not to since the peak price was so much more at one time. My current tariff is not E10 or E7. It’s the same for peak and off peak times. 

I’m going to contact the property manager tomorrow and get an electrician out. Take it from there. 

Thanks for all your replies. I’m less confused in some ways and so much more in others! 

Scot_39

The e7 peak price is the price you pay for the benefit of off peak price.

And it's the average price, not the one or other, at your usage split, that matters in a comparison with SR.  

And to make it more complex - SR and MR electric pricing is based on different assumptions - and the average MR price has changed by over 2p in some quarters - like in Jan cap cf Oct cap.  So the balance ratio against SR changes when the difference does.

Tariffs like e7 only work if your situation - your peak off peak usage mix - works.


Looking at one rate on e7 in isolation is generally for most users wrong.  Often the cheapest night rates come with the highest peak rates, so in themselves only meaningful if a very high off peak user all year round - some do maintain 90% - ev, battery systems etc - others nowhere near. 

Same when doing an E7 vs SR to decide on best tariffs - its your personal average price that matters.

The rough rule of thumb - but it's supplier dependent - is anything significantly over 40% use on the night rate - its normally cheaper to be on E7 overall.

But if your main hot water and winter heating is at off peak rates and you use a lot of power on both those at off peak cf everything else - including how water and any supplementary heating at peak  you can save.


Using my own numbers as a guide

I am on e10 - my current rates are c35p peak and c18p off peak.

And use about 75-80% off peak annually over last few years (on coldest weeks in winter that can peak over 90%, in summer drop to 50%). 

Its a bit easier on E10 - to have a higher percentage - but you pay with higher average pricing - sometimes peak and/or off peak rates over the years as get them for 10 hours.

So using 75% I now pay on average 
(75×18+25x35)/100  = c22.25p over the year.

If could achieve the same 75% split on E7
(75x13+25x35)/100 = c18.5p

The single rate  (EM DD) is currently 26.76p.

So I save 4.5p on average, so happy to pay 35p peak to get 18p off peak (14p if was on E7) at current rates -  but could save over 8p on E7 if could hold 75%.

But that's just EOn rates - EDF rates for E7 are c34.5 and c13.8 but c40.5 and c13.8  E10. One matches on off peak one matches on peak.


You can find your own region's current EOn single rate, e7 tariff and e10 etc on pdf links at

https://www.eonnext.com/electricity-and-gas/tariff-prices

Not 100% convinced from your description how your old meters were split though to get a true peak off peak split.

But if did - you could feed say e7 rates into

Aver Price = (off peak units used x off peak rate +
                           Peak units used x peak rate)  /
                        Total units used

And compare with your potentially SR rate.

And be wary of what any meter change means in terms of heating circuits.  But a smart e7 meter with alcs / 5 ports should have the same internal wiring needs as your new e10.
But if Quantums single wired the charge times would obviously need changing to match.  So bear that in mind when that meter reaches end of life.

Gerry1

@Scot_39

@willowanne

Sorry for the delay but I've deleted my earlier post because it's been completely overtaken by events: new info from Scot_39 (many thanks !) and the OP stating that they are now on a single rate tariff, NOT E10 or E7.  Rewriting it made everything messy and out of sequence, so it's simpler to summarise the new situation here.

* Very unlikely that the OP can go back to E10.  It's becoming very expensive, hardly anyone still offers it, and it's being phased out.  It's now E7 or bust, nothing will be more expensive than using NSHs and an immersion heater on single rate.

* Very unlikely that the meter can be set to E7 times.  The ancient E10 meter will have to be replaced with a 5-terminal two-rate meter and an E7 tariff.

* Are there two cables going to each Quantum (one 24h, one off-peak switched by the 5-terminal meter)?  That's the only reliable way to do it.  As the fans don't work it's likely that at present it's neither fish nor fowl: no heat will be blown out during the day if there's only an off-peak cable.

* Quantums can run off a single 24h supply, but it's a bit of a bodge: each Quantum will have to be accurately programmed to mimic the E7 times.  Get anything wrong (e.g. the GMT/BST changeover) and the OP will be hit with higher bills forever.  It might make sense for a brave homeowner to risk high bills by trying to cut corners, but the HA should do the job properly, running an extra 24h cable to each Quantum (especially as the electrician won't be there around midnight or breakfast time to verify that the Quantums and the meter are always in step).

Gerry1

Just a few quick points before your electrician's visit.  As the history is a bit convoluted it's important to be sure of the facts and principles.  Sorry if this sounds like preaching, but misunderstandings may be expensive and irreversible !

You need to be absolutely certain whether you're still on E10.  If you are on E10 and you switch to anything else, it's very unlikely you'll get E10 back from any supplier: it'll be a case of The Computer Says No.  E10 probably isn't cost effective (and will get even more expensive before being withdrawn), but before making any changes it's worth doing the sums to make sure.

The other problem is that any old plain Box of Bricks storage heaters that were OK on E10 (with its three-hour afternoon boost) are likely to result in chilly evenings if used on E7 during cold weather.  That's more of a problem for the HA to resolve, but in a cold January you wouldn't want to find out that you have an old NSH that can't cope with E7 and the HA has spent its budget and can't afford to replace it.  (I've mentioned that for the benefit of others who may be in similar situations.)

Finally, if you have any Quantums with the 'cheapskate' single supply setup, take very great care to check that the Quantum's programming matches your meter's off peak times.  No disrespect to your HA, but budget cuts may mean that they couldn't afford to install the additional wiring that Quantums need.  Similarly, no disrespect to the HA's electrician but he may not be allocated sufficient time to understand and program a single circuit Quantum correctly: as previously stated, it can be very hard to find out the exact switching times of any given E7 meter except by checking it around midnight and at breakfast time.  And you probably don't even have an E7 meter at present !

So the punchline is that a single circuit Quantum that's not been properly customised to your meter's switching times could work out expensive, and the problem is not immediately obvious.  Same thinking applies if the automatic top up hasn't been restricted or disabled; best to flag this up or set it yourself.  Similarly, check whether the water heater is on an off-peak circuit or relies on a local timeswitch.  Ask for at least one E7 outlet to have a neon indicator so you can check the off-peak times at a glance.

Finally, remember that although most suppliers charge much the same for their standard price-capped tariff, that's not the case for E7.  Some suppliers in some regions (e.g. EDF) have quite cheap night rates (although the day rates will be correspondingly higher), so keep records of kWh consumption, do the sums from time to time and shop around.  Above all, don't run NSHs on a single rate tariff during the winter, it's about the most expensive heating you can have.

Scot_39

Netexporter said:

Landlords can't stop you changing supplier. As suppliers are responsible for supplying/maintaining the meter then there is no reason why you can't have a smart meter.

Getting abit off topic.

Only True to some extent.

But they can stop you from permanently changing the meter type to suit you - or by doing so - I suspect supported tariff type.  As that impacts the running costs or ease of operation, EPC and so the potential rentability and resale value.

And so probably best to keep landlords informed.

There is a section in the advice on Citizens advice about switching between credit and prepay - that makes it clear tennants could be made to revert meter type - and if not pay for the landlord to organise direct or via deposit being retained.

SEE

https://www.citizensadvice.org.uk/consumer/energy/energy-supply/your-energy-meter/get-your-prepayment-meter-replaced-with-a-normal-meter/#:~:text=If you rent your home,keep some of your deposit.

There is even a thread here from a tennant who has permanently lost E10 type deal despite being assured by suppliers customer service dept her new smets2 smart meter would be a simple meter upgrade - who is facing problems with their landlord.  As to whether that is legally enforcable on tennant when not her choice.... I would hope not.

But the law is sometimes not as fair as you might expect. 

And clearly Ofgem and its rules for upgrades for legacy complex meters clearly been failing to ensure like for like in some cases - thats really not good enough when that can involve a fundamental change in metering.

If I lost E10 I - like my neighbours who lost it by own choice - thinking e7 fix at much cheaper off peak rates would save  money -  would probably need  to fit HHR panels to last the day on E7 or potentially go ashp - air to air so no grant iirc.

Both would cost me £1000s.