Previous housing association wants rent for period after I'd cancelled my tenancy. Please help

emperorstevee

Hello, everyone.

I had spent several years renting an apartment, under "Midland Heart". At the time, this was covered with Universal Credit payments, in the form of a monthly direct debit from my bank.

In February 2022 I decided to cancel my tenancy, to move to another country. I went ahead and starting filling in the online digital cancellation forms. I also called the housing association to have a representative help me complete the form. We went through it with no issue and as everything seemed fine I went ahead and closed the confirmation page and went about everything else involved in vacating the property.

I was given until, I think (this is a while go, now), the 5th of March to reverse my decision, at that point of which I would no longer to claim the tenancy. I remember calling them after cancelling, and before the the 5/3 to ask if I could pass the tenancy onto my brother, I wasn't allowed, so let the cancellation date go ahead.

I had my utilities cancelled for that - or around that - date, which I have email proof of. I have email proof of my ticket to leave the country around that date. I'm sure I could demonstrate that I took no universal credit payment after March. I had the apartment absolutely emptied by the 5/3.

And so I moved, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Until a few months in, finding my bank account empty and the housing association contacting me for next month's payment. I called them, explaining that I had cancelled. They said their system had no evidence of me having cancelled. They asked if I wanted to cancel now, and I told them I would like to cancel (again). And so I did the same thing again, going through the online process with them on the phone, making sure to stress "yes I do know what's on the next page, as I'd already done this!"

I then got emails saying that I did not cancel in March, that they received my payments until May, and that I then failed to pay until July, when I cancelled (a second time) and that I was also meant to pay for the month after that. They are saying that I need to pay £846.31.

We had a few emails back and forth and I explained to them:

"For your claim to bear even a semblance to reality, you would have to suppose that: 

 

1. I was using the LE12 8WS property without electricity, gas, internet, or water, for however many months you claim I continued to have the property for. 

 

 2. Or, that when cancelling all my direct debits for the reason of cancelling my tenancy, I forgot to cancel my tenancy. But then how would I have remembered to cancel my other utilities if I forgot that I was cancelling my tenancy, if the reason for cancelling these utilities was due to my tenancy ending? When they asked for my reason for ending the direct debits, what reason did I give them? “The reason is I forgot?”. No, the reason is I cancelled my tenancy in March.

 

3. Or, that every single one of the other services I used got the dates wrong, and actually midland heart was the sole service that is actually correct. 

 

4. For the six months from March to August that I apparently still had the property registered under my name, no one thought it at all strange that there appeared to be no one using my apartment. Because I had previously spent a lot less time away from the apartment and got a call from you asking if I was still using the property as you received concerns from other service users that I had deserted the property. This time, however, despite being away for a longer period, and entirely away, no one thought to raise a concern, or if someone did you did not follow up with a call or email to me as you did before.

 

This would also require you to assert that myself, my wife, my father, my brothers, and my wife's parents are lying. And that for the six months from March to August no one thought it at all strange that there appeared to be no one using my apartment. I had previously spent a lot less time away from the apartment and got a call from you asking if I was still using the property as you received concerns from other service users. Yet, apparently, when I was completely away 24/7, in a different country, you never thought to call to ask if I had deserted the property, as you had done last time. You wouldn’t need to would, you, if I had cancelled the tenancy, which is what I had done."

After this, they went quiet. But with my money in their possession. I sent several emails after this, asking for a response, which were ignored. Neither did their number work.

I then get an email from "uksearchenquire" about this debt, saying that I had not been responding to Midland Heart's emails (when it was the other way round), and that they may have to seek legal action if I don't respond or pay.

I'm not sure what I'm meant to do. They didn't cancel when I set my account to cancel. I can't control their system. They've taken all my money and are now demanding more.

loubel

Did they not send you any form of confirmation that you had cancelled the tenancy? That would seem unusual and suggest that you may not have finished the process online. How did you return the keys when you vacated? 

penners324

You send them a copy of the confirmation of cancellation. Then claim back the overpaid rent

saajan_12

Much of that is irrelevant to the legal tenancy agreement. You may not have lived there or had utilities connected, but that doesn't make it their responsibility to check these. It would be your responsibility to serve the required notice and actually cancel per the terms of the tenancy. That notice is what gives them the ability to know the tenancy has ended without risking an illegal eviction case, and get a new tenant in who would start paying rent.

At this stage, its just a question of your proof that you served the required notice. 

emperorstevee said:

Hello, everyone.

I had spent several years renting an apartment, under "Midland Heart". At the time, this was covered with Universal Credit payments, in the form of a monthly direct debit from my bank.

In February 2022 I decided to cancel my tenancy, to move to another country. I went ahead and starting filling in the online digital cancellation forms. I also called the housing association to have a representative help me complete the form. We went through it with no issue and as everything seemed fine I went ahead and closed the confirmation page and went about everything else involved in vacating the property. - did you receive any confirmation of the cancellation? Or do you have anything in writing after this (eg about collecting keys, confirmed final date etc)? 

I was given until, I think (this is a while go, now), the 5th of March to reverse my decision, at that point of which I would no longer to claim the tenancy. I remember calling them after cancelling, and before the the 5/3 to ask if I could pass the tenancy onto my brother, I wasn't allowed, so let the cancellation date go ahead. - okay, do you have any proof of this?

I had my utilities cancelled for that - or around that - date, which I have email proof of. I have email proof of my ticket to leave the country around that date. I'm sure I could demonstrate that I took no universal credit payment after March. I had the apartment absolutely emptied by the 5/3. - irrelevant, even if you weren't living there, you have to give the proper notice. 

And so I moved, and nothing seemed out of the ordinary. Until a few months in, finding my bank account empty and the housing association contacting me for next month's payment. I called them, explaining that I had cancelled. They said their system had no evidence of me having cancelled. They asked if I wanted to cancel now, and I told them I would like to cancel (again). And so I did the same thing again, going through the online process with them on the phone, making sure to stress "yes I do know what's on the next page, as I'd already done this!"

I then got emails saying that I did not cancel in March, that they received my payments until May, and that I then failed to pay until July, when I cancelled (a second time) and that I was also meant to pay for the month after that. They are saying that I need to pay £846.31.

We had a few emails back and forth and I explained to them:

"For your claim to bear even a semblance to reality, you would have to suppose that: 

 

1. I was using the LE12 8WS property without electricity, gas, internet, or water, for however many months you claim I continued to have the property for. - they aren't saying that you used the property. They wouldn't check utility usage. 

 

 2. Or, that when cancelling all my direct debits for the reason of cancelling my tenancy, I forgot to cancel my tenancy. But then how would I have remembered to cancel my other utilities if I forgot that I was cancelling my tenancy, if the reason for cancelling these utilities was due to my tenancy ending? When they asked for my reason for ending the direct debits, what reason did I give them? “The reason is I forgot?”. No, the reason is I cancelled my tenancy in March.- no, you could have just forgotten one step. 

 

3. Or, that every single one of the other services I used got the dates wrong, and actually midland heart was the sole service that is actually correct. - no, the services have the correct dates for when you cancelled those services in March. If you didn't complete the cancellation with MH, then they may be correct on the date they were given. 

 

4. For the six months from March to August that I apparently still had the property registered under my name, no one thought it at all strange that there appeared to be no one using my apartment. Because I had previously spent a lot less time away from the apartment and got a call from you asking if I was still using the property as you received concerns from other service users that I had deserted the property. This time, however, despite being away for a longer period, and entirely away, no one thought to raise a concern, or if someone did you did not follow up with a call or email to me as you did before. - what was done in the past doesn't mean they had a responsibility to you to monitor the property, particularly as rent was being paid. Also not clear who was raising those concerns - if 'other service users' = neighbours, then maybe they heard you were moving and didn't call MH. 

 

This would also require you to assert that myself, my wife, my father, my brothers, and my wife's parents are lying. And that for the six months from March to August no one thought it at all strange that there appeared to be no one using my apartment. I had previously spent a lot less time away from the apartment and got a call from you asking if I was still using the property as you received concerns from other service users. Yet, apparently, when I was completely away 24/7, in a different country, you never thought to call to ask if I had deserted the property, as you had done last time. You wouldn’t need to would, you, if I had cancelled the tenancy, which is what I had done." - again, no ones lying, you did move, they are just saying you didn't legally cancel the agreement, thus depriving them of the chance to re rent the place. 

After this, they went quiet. - not surpised, its quite a bizarre reply when the only relevant bit is whether you legally terminated with THEM. 

But with my money in their possession. - well they have money for rent for part of the period. Their argument is they could have had this from a new tenant if you had formally ended the tenancy, but if you didn't it has to come from you. 

I sent several emails after this, asking for a response, which were ignored. Neither did their number work. 

I then get an email from "uksearchenquire" about this debt, saying that I had not been responding to Midland Heart's emails (when it was the other way round), and that they may have to seek legal action if I don't respond or pay. 

I'm not sure what I'm meant to do. They didn't cancel when I set my account to cancel. I can't control their system. - right, but you could have cancelled in writing when its that important. And now, you can provide the proof of that writing. 

They've taken all my money and are now demanding more.

SiliconChip

As the money was taken with a Direct Debit you can contact your bank and ask them to invoke the DD Guarantee to have the money returned to you. You may still owe some or all of it to the HA but at least it'll be back under your control.

EssexHebridean

You presumably have the receipt that you were given when you returned the keys? Even assuming that for some reason you can no longer track down the confirmation of cancellation that would have been sent originally, that receipt should prove that you no longer had the keys from "X date". 

Have you done a thorough search through emails to ensure that nothing was sent that way in terms of the cancellation documentation? It could be that you were assuming that it would have been posted, but in fact it was emailed to you as is so common these days? Also what about any screenshots you took of the screen confirming the cancellation when you did it originally? I always do that even if I'm just ordering something if there is a delay on a confirmation arriving, never mind if I'm doing something really vital! 

sheramber

 I went ahead and closed the confirmation page and went about everything else involved in vacating the property.

Did you press the submit button before you closed the page?

EssexHebridean

sheramber said:

 I went ahead and closed the confirmation page and went about everything else involved in vacating the property.

Did you press the submit button before you closed the page?

I can't think of too many situations in which you get confirmation of something before you have submitted the request, in fairness. 

sheramber

EssexHebridean said:

sheramber said:

 I went ahead and closed the confirmation page and went about everything else involved in vacating the property.

Did you press the submit button before you closed the page?

I can't think of too many situations in which you get confirmation of something before you have submitted the request, in fairness. 

The confirmation page ccould  be to confirm the information on the form is correct before submitting it.

emperorstevee

Hello everyone,

I was going to quote specific responses and reply to them, but I wasn't sure how to add a response to a quote, and so I'll make one response answering questions.

We made arrangements for the keys to be collected from my parents' house. This was certainly done, as the housing association has continued to send debt letters to that house, including just a few days ago. I called my dad to ask if they had taken the keys in March. They said they had not. This may have been evidence of me having been the one at fault, but then I asked if they had came to collect the keys in August - which is the date in which I did get email confirmation of the cancellation for - and my dad said that they hadn't come to collect the keys on that date, either. This is the address that I asked them to collect from, that's why they have the address to send letters to. Apparently, my dad still has my keys.

I absolutely submitted the form before closing the page, as I called a representative from the association to have them go through the entire form with me. I told them that was the reason for the call from the start of the call, and I stayed on the line with them until the form was completed by myself. I remember this person telling me that I had a certain period to reverse my cancellation, as I remember calling them, again, before that period ended to ask if I could pass the tenancy on to a relative.

And as mentioned previously, when I spent a while away from the apartment, due to still being on the tenancy, I received a call asking if I was still using the premises. I received nothing for this period.

Yes, I would have pressed submit before closing the page, I don't think I'd have had the option to close the page, without the "are you sure you wish to..." notification.

"Also what about any screenshots you took of the screen confirming the cancellation when you did it originally? I always do that even if I'm just ordering something if there is a delay on a confirmation arriving, never mind if I'm doing something really vital!" Well, I have done, since this episode, heh. Granted, this is the first time cancelling a tenancy, but I've never had this issue with filling online forms, before. I suppose I must have just assumed this email would come through, at some point. And from what I can see, it never did.

I'm not sure how I could have my bank reverse the money paid via direct debit, especially after over a year has passed?

"Much of that is irrelevant to the legal tenancy agreement. You may not have lived there or had utilities connected, but that doesn't make it their responsibility to check these. It would be your responsibility to serve the required notice and actually cancel per the terms of the tenancy."

I'm aware of that, I bring that up because I did indeed serve the required notice and everything involved and it would be very strange for me to cancel all the utilities in my apartment to then forget to cancel my tenancy, as that would be the reason for ending the utilities. My argument is that I did cancel, and as per cancelling I did not use these utilities and my statements would show that. My apartment was completely bare of all furnishings and had not used a penny of any utility from the date I was given for my tenancy to end.

The representative of the housing association stopped responding to my emails after I pointed some of this out, and currently they have UKSearchEnquire emailing me. They wish for me to call them, which would require an international call as I've moved to a different country. I've told them to not send mail to my parents' address, that I am unable to make an international call, and that if they will not return the money the Association has taken I will have look into other action.

Thanks for the responses, everyone, I appreciate it!

Spendless

We made arrangements for the keys to be collected from my parents' house. This was certainly done, as the housing association has continued to send debt letters to that house, including just a few days ago. I called my dad to ask if they had taken the keys in March. They said they had not. This may have been evidence of me having been the one at fault, but then I asked if they had came to collect the keys in August - which is the date in which I did get email confirmation of the cancellation for - and my dad said that they hadn't come to collect the keys on that date, either. This is the address that I asked them to collect from, that's why they have the address to send letters to. Apparently, my dad still has my keys.


To me (I used to work in social housing but a diff department) is where your issue lies. The keys aren't back in the HA possession therefore you are still being charged rent. How did you make these arrangements for them to be collected and why not them being dropped off? That was the procedure where I worked, the onus was on the tenant or their representative to drop the keys off at one of our offices where they would be issued with signed paperwork from both parties saying they'd done so. I would get your evidence together that you made these arrangements.