Previous housing association wants rent for period after I'd cancelled my tenancy. Please help

HampshireH

Can you just clarify what date they are charging you rent up to? Did you put your tenancy notice in writing (did you contract require that, many do). Have they now ended your tenancy.

How much was your rent? If what they are charging you equates to 1 month rent then I expect as you didn't return the keys they served a notice to quit and changed the locks (many don't go down the court route and do it this way instead saving the customer further rent arrears and HAs further rent loss)

It was your responsibility check in August they had collected they keys on yhe date you arranged. Also to follow up your end of tenancy had been processed.  All HAs should send a confirmation of receiving your notice giving you a tenancy end date etc. 

I expect from what you have said you are liable for it 

Schwarzwald

To summarize,

• You have no proof that you have actually given notice as you say.
• You in fact still hold the keys

 To me this is a very weak case to argue you are in the right and they are in the wrong.

Also, it should be in your interest to clarify this situation so this “I cant make international calls” is a pretty lazy stance, there are numerous cheap online call providers, incl good old Skype, but ultimately this is another you-problem not a they-problem.

If I were owed money, sure thing I would go after your parents address. It should be in your interest to sort this, not sure why you believe you can demand from them “not to send mail to your parents” when you previously gave them the address thereby establishing a connection between them and your parents.

What are these “other action” that you believe are a good idea to take?

unless you have any hard proof that shows when and how you terminated the agreement, you are better advised to find an amicable resolution with them instead of trying to figtht them with hardly any sound argument

slipthru

Can you request a DSAR from the housing association? This sounds like them passing the buck. If you did indeed fill out the request to end your tenancy online like you say, while on the phone to them they should have a log of that call.

Also regarding the keys it does seem odd that they agreed to collect the keys from your parents house. Was this actually agreed with the housing association prior to you leaving the keys in your parents possession? If it was agreed was this done over the phone or by email? Again if done in either of these ways there should be a paper trail. 

From my experience of dealing with a housing association you are probably dealing with staff who are lazy at there job. Hence them saying they have no recollection of you ever requesting to cancel.

emperorstevee

"when you previously gave them the address thereby establishing a connection between them and your parents." I gave the Housing Association that address because that is where I asked them to collect my keys from. They didn't collect the keys in March, the date in which they didn't give me a confirmation that I cancelled, but then they didn't go to collect them when they did give me confirmation in August, either.

I'm not sure how you are turning this onto me. I filled in the online application process, which I know I completed because I had their representative stay on the line with me until it was finished. I asked them to collect the keys from my parents house, which is how they've got the address of my parents' house. 

"Also regarding the keys it does seem odd that they agreed to collect the keys from your parents house. Was this actually agreed with the housing association prior to you leaving the keys in your parents possession? If it was agreed was this done over the phone or by email?" It was agreed over the phone, it's why the debt collection agency has my parents address.

I would just like to reclarify briefly what happened. I was due to move to another country, at the start of March. I filled out the cancellation form online, whilst on the phone to a representative. I didn't end the call until the form was completed. My dad and brother cleared out my apartment and I left the keys with my parents, the debt collection agency has my parents' address as I gave it to the housing association with instructions to collect my keys from there. They didn't collect the keys in March, but according to my dad they didn't come to collect the keys in August, the month in which I did receive a cancellation email. And to restate, the reason I gave them my parents' address was to collect the keys. Surely, if the reason they didn't collect the keys in March was because I didn't actually cancel, then they would have collected them in August when they did confirm my cancellation, yet they didn't collect them then either. At no point did the Housing Association ever ask me to return the keys to them.

I had no other reason to give them my parents' address. My family were waiting for them to come and collect the keys, and I also remember how we had a several week reversal period for the cancellation and my dad was trying to organise for my brother to move into my apartment, but they wouldn't allow that. We wouldn't have gotten to any of that if the person on the other end of the phone had not clarified the cancellation and agreed to have the keys collected from their address.

My dad and brother can attest to the cancellation, and I know others have pointed out it won't mean anything but I also have records of all my utilities being cancelled for that date, I myself know I sat on that phone call until that form was finished for cancellation in March. I would have been away from the property without a single visit for several months and the last time I did that the Association contacted me to ask if I was still using the property - that didn't happen this time. I can't control what emails their system does or doesn't send to me, but I absolutely cancelled.

"You are probably dealing with staff who are lazy at there job.". That is putting it mildly, I've had no end of their lack of professionalism, throughout my whole time with them.

TL:DR version: The only reason they have my parents' address is because they asked for it to to collect the keys from, and the only reason they wanted to collect the keys was because I cancelled my tenancy. They didn't collect the keys in March, but neither did they collect the keys in August which is when they did confirm my cancellation.

emperorstevee

Schwarzwald said:

To summarize,

• You have no proof that you have actually given notice as you say.
• You in fact still hold the keys

 To me this is a very weak case to argue you are in the right and they are in the wrong.

Also, it should be in your interest to clarify this situation so this “I cant make international calls” is a pretty lazy stance, there are numerous cheap online call providers, incl good old Skype, but ultimately this is another you-problem not a they-problem.

If I were owed money, sure thing I would go after your parents address. It should be in your interest to sort this, not sure why you believe you can demand from them “not to send mail to your parents” when you previously gave them the address thereby establishing a connection between them and your parents.

What are these “other action” that you believe are a good idea to take?

unless you have any hard proof that shows when and how you terminated the agreement, you are better advised to find an amicable resolution with them instead of trying to figtht them with hardly any sound argument

And my parents still hold the keys after the association sent me email confirmation of cancellation in August, so I don't see how them not collecting the keys is proof of me having not cancelled.

"when you previously gave them the address thereby establishing a connection between them and your parents." 

And the reason they have that address is because they asked for it to collect my keys from, which I left with them due to not being in the country on the collection date. Why would they be asking to collect my keys if I apparently hadn't even cancelled?

How can I prove something, if that proof is reliant on something that exists only within their system?

"Also, it should be in your interest to clarify this situation so this “I cant make international calls” is a pretty lazy stance, there are numerous cheap online call providers, incl good old Skype, but ultimately this is another you-problem not a they-problem."

They had already told me that they can't do international calls. If they, as a registered company, don't have the resources to make an international call, how do I?

emperorstevee

slipthru said:

Can you request a DSAR from the housing association? This sounds like them passing the buck. If you did indeed fill out the request to end your tenancy online like you say, while on the phone to them they should have a log of that call.

Also regarding the keys it does seem odd that they agreed to collect the keys from your parents house. Was this actually agreed with the housing association prior to you leaving the keys in your parents possession? If it was agreed was this done over the phone or by email? Again if done in either of these ways there should be a paper trail. 

From my experience of dealing with a housing association you are probably dealing with staff who are lazy at there job. Hence them saying they have no recollection of you ever requesting to cancel.

How do I go about doing this DSAR?

Is it usual for an association to ask me to drop off the keys at one of their locations? I explained to them that I was moving country before the end of the period in which I had to reverse my cancellation, and was told over the phone that they could collect my keys from my parents' house. It's why they have my parents' address.

The reason I don't have records of everything is because that correspondence was meant to have been turned over to my parents as I would no longer be in the country. I gave the association the contact and address details for my parents and they were meant to have got into contact with them to get everything finished.

It's one thing to say "actually you didn't cancel, and that's your fault", but now you'd also have to tell me that my parents, who went to the trouble of spending several days clearing out my apartment, just decided they wouldn't accept any contact from the Association. My dad would also be able to confirm that date, as he was interested in passing my apartment on to my brother, and I remember that because my brother is someone who struggles to commit to things, my dad had to be quite pushy with him to get a definite answer from him before it reached the deadline to reverse the cancellation. 

That would just make no sense. My parents knew I'd cancelled for that date, they spoke to the housing association themselves, and had my apartment clear for that date. I know I cancelled, I had a representative over the phone help me cancel. And I can freely admit, that I did forget to cancel my council tax for March. I had cancelled my utilities and rental, but I had forgotten to cancel the council tax and so had a few months to pay off. And I immediately owned up to it, that was my mistake. I didn't try to argue with them saying I hadn't been in the property for months etc, I just accepted my mistake and immediately paid up. But I ABSOLUTELY cancelled my tenancy for March.

HampshireH

Whilst you may have given notice the return of the keys is the clear indicator you have moved out.

Whilst not unheard of, It's highly unusual for a Housing Association to be running around collecting keys. It's not lazy its sensible.
 
They operate a keysafe system where the keys should be put in the keysafe. Their website is VERY clear that anyone who does not put the keys in the keysafe will be charged a lock change and also weekly rent until they have access (as I alluded to before and as is what seems to have happened).

Ultimately if you had made this arrangement then you should have checked it had been seen through. Why didn't you dad tell you on the day that they hadn't been collected.  It would have saved you all this as you could have contact your HA the same day and not paid a penny more.

BeerSavesMoney

Do your parents still have the keys? If they can, it’s probably best that the keys are returned and that you receive confirmation of this in writing. 

I think at this point holding on to the keys isn’t going to help your case, after they’ve been returned then you can follow up on the rental payment requested. 

Section62

emperorstevee said:

I'm not sure how I could have my bank reverse the money paid via direct debit, especially after over a year has passed?

I'd suggest you ignore that advice as it isn't a good idea. The DD guarantee shouldn't be used in circumstances like this.

The Direct Debit Guarantee applies to all Direct Debits. It protects you in the rare event that there is an error with the payment of your Direct Debit, for instance if a payment is taken on the incorrect date, or the wrong amount is collected. It cannot be used to address contractual disputes between you and the billing organisation.
Your bank or building society may review the transaction/s before the Direct Debit Guarantee is activated.

https://www.directdebit.co.uk/direct-debit-explained/direct-debit-guarantee​

If you invoke the guarantee in circumstances where it isn't appropriate your bank may take a dim view of that - it isn't beyond possible they may treat it as fraud and have a CIFAS marker applied.

In any event, does the bank know you've moved to a different country?  Most, with the exception (possibly) of HSBC, have been closing the accounts of people who aren't living in the UK.  Unless your bank is aware of where you are living and has agreed to keep your account open then doing something that would alert them to an issue (in particular making a false DD guarantee claim) would probably mean your account(s) get closed, even if they don't go as far as treating it as a fraud/CIFAS issue.

If you want your money back you need to prove you are contractually entitled to it - either by persuading the HA, or if that fails then by taking legal action to reclaim it.

emperorstevee

"Ultimately if you had made this arrangement then you should have checked it had been seen through. Why didn't you dad tell you on the day that they hadn't been collected.  It would have saved you all this as you could have contact your HA the same day and not paid a penny more."

Without going into too much detail, my dad has major issues. A while back I WhatsApped him a picture of his nephew's new born and he flat out ignored it. He doesn't want anything to do with anyone, not even the family. Just a month or so after I turned 18 (I'm 30, now) he chucked me out and has since acted like something awful has happened if I try to have any interaction with him.

Just before leaving, he told me he would see to any communications with the HA and let them pick up the key. I had heard nothing from him or the HA, on the day of the reversal period ran out (and for the next several months) so I thought it must have just gone ahead smoothly. Surely, if there was an issue, my dad or the HA would have contacted me quickly. Maybe it's different with other people, but to keep things simple if I was asked to do a favour like this, I'd say "yeah I can do that, I'll contact you if any issues arise, but if you don't hear from me about this, then it went fine". It wasn't until August that the HA wanted that month's rent and it was only then that I discovered that the rental had not been cancelled. 

And so I call my dad, I tell him that the HA have been collecting my rent past March and i can't remember exactly what I said, but it was to the effect of "the HA has still been taking rent, they were meant to have cancelled in March and picked up the keys from you, did they do that?". And his response wasn't "they didn't collect, and I've been trying to get hold of you but couldn't", nor was it "they didn't collect and I've been trying to contact them", or just anything alluding to him having done anything in response to the keys not been collected. It was just an incredibly casual "oh...no, no one's been", a fact which he had sat on through March, April, May, June, July and August, without so much as texting me about it.

He's very insecure and doesn't like interacting with people. It's hard to convey over words, it's something you'd have to experience in person. He tries to make anything and everything you ask of him, even just basic conversations, such a laborious task that you give up. He sets every interaction up to make himself the victim and then intentionally makes things difficult, which causes you to eventually get annoyed, and then "this is why I didn't want to talk in the first place, you get annoyed, I'm a victim". Just a minor detail for context of what he's like, as a kid we would have the dining table in the kitchen. My mum would have the dinner cooked and when my dad got home from work he would stand between the table and kitchen surface, leaving little room for my mum to serve food. My mum would always tell him to sit down, but he never would. It was this little thing he could do which over time really bothers you, but at the same time so small that if my mum did get annoyed, he'd be the victim for her "overreaction". And at the same time, I have a condition that means I have to sit on a chair to put my shoes on, and literally every single time I needed to do that, in the same kitchen in which he wouldn't sit down when asked, my dad would decide that he wanted to sit down just for the sake of it.

I feel like that's unneeded detail, but at the same time if I don't include it it feels like you are missing an important bit of context. "It's just a phone call to you to tell you the keys weren't picked up, how hard is that for anyone?" Well, my dad is my dad and that's what he's like. He doesn't like himself and so pushes everyone away, making every interaction a major task with him, but sets it up so actually you are the bad one for taking issue with it, he's now the victim so he better have even less contact with you. Whether it's a phone call about this, or anything else, it's the same: He won't respond to texts for weeks - even months -, he will just happen to not have his phone on him every single time I call, when he does eventually answer he will act like he's a bit mentally not there (he is mentally fine), or that he's not struggling to understand how to do things on the phone (he doesn't actually have difficulties, he's an electronic engineer whose had a smart phone for years and who has no issues doing group whatsapp calls with people he does want to talk to). I'd have gone through all that just to be told "No, they didn't collect", and if I would like any more information it'll be all that again for a one sentence reply. Sorry I  got myself a bit frustrated, but I think that's the point I'm trying to convey, he wants to make even the most basic interaction with him an impossible, frustrating task, and he's the only contact I have for this issue, other than the HA.

So, as I say, my dad had assured me he would be there to collect the keys, the HA had told me the cancellation was fine, they'd collect on that date. Everything that needed to be put into motion seemed to have been done. But apparently not, and as you say @HampshireH my dad could have let me know on the day that they hadn't been to collect and I could have simply sorted it that day and not paid a penny more. But no, not a word from him.

@HampshireH "Whilst not unheard of, It's highly unusual for a Housing Association to be running around collecting keys. It's not lazy its sensible."

I can agree, I imagine HA's would prefer the tenant to drop off the keys to them and would expect that by default. But I had explained to them that I wouldn't be in the country on the date of the collection and they said they would be happy to pick up the keys from my parents' house. It's the only reason they have my parents' address which has enabled them to send my parents debt letters. This was my first time ending a private tenancy, I'm not overly familiar with how everything works.

@Section62 "In any event, does the bank know you've moved to a different country?". I believe when I first moved countries I used my bank debit card to make some purchases, which invokes an additional out of country charge, so I assume they must have some sort of record of me having moved. And I do remember going to my local bank in the UK to discuss something related to me moving countries (i can't remember exactly what, this was nearly two years ago, now).

@BeerSavesMoney My parents still have the keys. I thought to myself "the HA didn't collect them in March, so maybe I did make a mistake and I didn't cancel in March", but then after email confirmation of my cancellation in August, they still hadn't collected the keys. They've cancelled my tenancy for sure now, and haven't required me to return their keys. 

I don't this to come across like I want to throw all responsibility to someone else, but there is only so much I was able to do from 5000 miles away. I immediately cancelled a second time, in August, when I was told to by the HA. My dad could, and should, have let me know they didn't collect the keys, as soon as possible. But he sat on that fact for months, and probably would have taken that fact with him to grave if I hadn't asked him. 

What I can't get my head around is this:

- The debt collection agency were sending debt notice letters to my parents' address.

- Outside of this issue, my parents have had no contact with the HA, the only reason they have my parents' address was for the collection of the keys.

- The reason they are collecting the keys was because I cancelled the tenancy.

So, I'm not sure why no one has picked up on "how did we get this address?...They gave it to us as that's where we were meant to collect the keys from as he's cancelled his tenancy...oh maybe he did cancel then". 

@Section62 "If you want your money back you need to prove you are contractually entitled to it - either by persuading the HA, or if that fails then by taking legal action to reclaim it."

I was corresponding via email with a representative of the HA, and he was happy to respond (and quite quickly) until I started mentioning details that supported my side of things quite solidly and rather than addressing what I said, he went silent and now I only receive emails from the debt collection agency. I'm happy to still talk to him, I'm happy to take a call from them if they can call me. In fact, I want them to, because from my side of things, they owe me the rent payments they took from me after I cancelled. I know I cancelled, I know what I said in that email was a solid case for my point and I know they are hiding from addressing what I've said:

- I was completely absent from the property from the start of March, to the August in which they contacted me over the missed payment. That's around five months in which I've not set foot in the country, let alone the apartment. I had previously been away from the apartment for a shorter period than that, and the HA had contacted me to ask if I had deserted the property. I got no such questions from them this time around. 

- If it's possible to do utility meter readings you'll find I hadn't spent a single penny on water, gas or electricity between March and August, and so if I hadnt cancelled and was still using the property you'd have to suppose I lived without water, gas and electricity for five months.

- And if you want to argue "you cancelled all your utilities but forgot to cancel the rent", that would make no sense. When you cancel utilities, for research purposes the utility providers ask you the reason for cancelling your services. And so I'd be ticking the option, again and again, "I'm no longer staying at the property", how could I forget I need to cancel the rent, if the reason I'm giving all these providers for cancellation is that I'm no longer at the property.

It just seems crazy, to me. They have my parents address because it was the address I gave them to collect the keys, and the reason they were collecting the keys was because I cancelled my tenancy for March. All my utility direct debits ended for March, and the reason they ended was because I cancelled my tenancy for March. The fault (not including my dad not telling me they didn't collect my keys) seems to be that for some reason that can't be known to me, it didn't go through their system. And now they are wanting me to pay a sum of money as a result of this error.