Previous housing association wants rent for period after I'd cancelled my tenancy. Please help

Section62

emperorstevee said:

I feel like that's unneeded detail, but at the same time if I don't include it it feels like you are missing an important bit of context.

There is a fair amount of detail there which isn't really needed, but I guess if it came to a court case the judge may ask if you know all this about your dad then it makes it odder that you entrusted him with this task... and didn't pick up the phone to check that everything had gone Ok.

"In any event, does the bank know you've moved to a different country?". I believe when I first moved countries I used my bank debit card to make some purchases, which invokes an additional out of country charge, so I assume they must have some sort of record of me having moved. And I do remember going to my local bank in the UK to discuss something related to me moving countries (i can't remember exactly what, this was nearly two years ago, now).

In which case I really wouldn't recommend using the DD guarantee to get your money back.  Using your card overseas doesn't inform your bank you've moved there (you could be on holiday or visiting) and if you aren't sure they know you aren't in the UK then there is another great big can of worms waiting to be opened if you go down the DD guarantee route.

"If you want your money back you need to prove you are contractually entitled to it - either by persuading the HA, or if that fails then by taking legal action to reclaim it."

I was corresponding via email with a representative of the HA, and he was happy to respond (and quite quickly) until I started mentioning details that supported my side of things quite solidly and rather than addressing what I said, he went silent and now I only receive emails from the debt collection agency. I'm happy to still talk to him, I'm happy to take a call from them if they can call me. In fact, I want them to, because from my side of things, they owe me the rent payments they took from me after I cancelled. I know I cancelled, I know what I said in that email was a solid case for my point and I know they are hiding from addressing what I've said:

- I was completely absent from the property from the start of March, to the August in which they contacted me over the missed payment. That's around five months in which I've not set foot in the country, let alone the apartment. I had previously been away from the apartment for a shorter period than that, and the HA had contacted me to ask if I had deserted the property. I got no such questions from them this time around. 

- If it's possible to do utility meter readings you'll find I hadn't spent a single penny on water, gas or electricity between March and August, and so if I hadnt cancelled and was still using the property you'd have to suppose I lived without water, gas and electricity for five months.

- And if you want to argue "you cancelled all your utilities but forgot to cancel the rent", that would make no sense. When you cancel utilities, for research purposes the utility providers ask you the reason for cancelling your services. And so I'd be ticking the option, again and again, "I'm no longer staying at the property", how could I forget I need to cancel the rent, if the reason I'm giving all these providers for cancellation is that I'm no longer at the property.

It just seems crazy, to me. They have my parents address because it was the address I gave them to collect the keys, and the reason they were collecting the keys was because I cancelled my tenancy for March. All my utility direct debits ended for March, and the reason they ended was because I cancelled my tenancy for March. The fault (not including my dad not telling me they didn't collect my keys) seems to be that for some reason that can't be known to me, it didn't go through their system. And now they are wanting me to pay a sum of money as a result of this error.

Almost all the above is irrelevant. The contract you had would have specified how it could be ended by yourself, which typically involves giving notice and complying with various end of tenancy requirements such as handing back the keys.  If you don't complete the process they are very likely entitled to continue charging you.

The onus was on you to comply with the terms of the contract - even if they offered as a favour to collect the keys - you still had to make sure that the contract had ended.  One of the important checks you could have made would be checking your bank account to make sure they had stopped taking payments - if you did that in the first month then you'd have been able to sort it out then before having to pay any further rent.  That isn't meant as a criticism of you, just pointing out how the HA and/or a Court would view the matter.

In some cases you might have a chance of getting the HA to cancel the money owed and/or refund you if the extra cost had caused you hardship.  The problem with that is if you didn't even notice the money coming out of your account each month, arguing hardship may be quite difficult.

Overall I feel your best chance may be to make a formal complaint about them not collecting the keys as you were led to believe they would do, and if they don't find in your favour then take it to the Housing Ombudsman.  The other options may cause you more problems than you have already.

Section62

emperorstevee said:

So, I'm not sure why no one has picked up on "how did we get this address?...They gave it to us as that's where we were meant to collect the keys from as he's cancelled his tenancy...oh maybe he did cancel then". 

There's other ways they can get your address - for example by using a tracing agency.  E.g. If you've given your parent's address to your bank then the tracing agency may have run checks and found you were (apparently) living there.

emperorstevee

Section62 said:

emperorstevee said:

So, I'm not sure why no one has picked up on "how did we get this address?...They gave it to us as that's where we were meant to collect the keys from as he's cancelled his tenancy...oh maybe he did cancel then". 

There's other ways they can get your address - for example by using a tracing agency.  E.g. If you've given your parent's address to your bank then the tracing agency may have run checks and found you were (apparently) living there.

They have the address because they asked for their address for the location to collect the keys from.

"if you know all this about your dad then it makes it odder that you entrusted him with this task". Understandable. But even with that past, I didn't think being in the house on the day to give over the keys and to let me know if there were any issues would be too much for him. He said it was fine and that he would let me know if he ran into an issue. I also didn't know who else to trust to give the keys to. I thought, considering he seems to drop everything for whatever demand my brothers have, then perhaps he would be fine to do this. It's pretty important, and once I've moved to Malaysia he can live his dream of never having to interact with me again. As for calling him to check, he doesn't respond to me for weeks. I just thought, considering that if this went smoothly he wouldn't have to bother with his oldest son again, he might be willing to put one last bit of effort in to make this go smoothly. Couple that with also having heard no issue from the HA, after everything seemingly being completely fine the last time we spoke, I assumed, and all I could do really, that it was okay.

" The contract you had would have specified how it could be ended by yourself, which typically involves giving notice and complying with various end of tenancy requirements such as handing back the keys". I did what they asked of me. I gave the correct notice, one of the reasons for how much of a mess it became was because that notice period meant I wouldn't be in the country when it ended. And I know it sounds completely weird that they didn't ask me to hand in the keys. This is the first time I've ended a tenancy and I didn't know what to expect. But they didn't. I wasn't given an address. Just a contact number which I gave to my dad, with the intention of the keys being collected. "even if they offered as a favour to collect the keys". They didn't offer this with any sort of hint that this was a favour, it was expressed as if it was just a standard thing to do. And for the record, even with this issue aside, every issue I've ever had with them has been responded to in the most unprofessional manner you could imagine.

"The contract you had would have specified how it could be ended by yourself, which typically involves giving notice and complying with various end of tenancy requirements.". That's the thing, I did. This is why I called their representative and kept them on the line until i finished the cancellation form, to avoid something like this. I went through every page of the cancellation form with him. I made sure to ask as many "and what should I do if so and so happens" and "is there something else I need to do/include" questions as I could think of. I did not end that call until the form was submitted, if I tried to close it before finishing it would have given me the "are you sure you want to" pop up and even after I'd done it I spent time trying to think of any more questions I could ask. And then he told me that I had until so and so date to reverse the cancellation which led to me giving over my dad's details for the collection of the keys. in further accordance with the contract, I had the apartment cleared for before the date of the end of my tenancy. My dad and siblings spent a couple of days clearing everything out, i sold off or donated many of my things, I paid a decorator to touch up the walls. There wasn't a single thing the HA asked me to do that I wasn't doing. Because they were going to collect from my dad, I made the addition of calling them again whilst I was with my dad, as having decades more life experience than me, perhaps he might have something to suggest to the HA about the situation. I don't know, I just wanted to make sure everything was fine, to avoid something like this. He wanted me to keep hold of the apartment, in case I decided to move back to the UK. And so he asked my brother if he would like to spend a few months there and pay the rent. My brother is indecisive and disinterested in general, and so my dad had to be a bit pushy "come on, you need to decide by X date", because as I said, I HAD been given this date as the end date, because I HAD cancelled. The HA said they wouldn't be able to do that, that the tenancy would have to be given to whoever is next in the queue. Now, I don't know why such a conversation would even be happening if they weren't aware that I'd ended my tenancy.

"The problem with that is if you didn't even notice the money coming out of your account each month, arguing hardship may be quite difficult." The reason for that is that I've never seen an RBS in this country, I don't have access to my online banking account, the last time I checked the bank app didnt work on my then phone. My partner who originates from this new country had sorted my basic food, clothing and shelter needs and my plan was to find work after legal marriage and then set up a bank account here. We met in the UK, but covid restrictions meant she had to return to Malaysia after she finished uni. She brought me over here a year later, so that's how that happened.

I discover a while into my move that I cannot legally work. And that potentially I cannot legally work for ten years, due to my none native citizen status. She knew that this would be the case, to some degree. My tenancy back in the UK had ran out, a plane back would cost money I didn't have. Some context is needed about my partner. I'm not intending to stereotype, nor am I saying this out of emotion, I'm stating it how it was. It's an east asian family. I didn't want to make assumptions, but from the moment I met her parents (whose house I was reliant on for shelter for many months), it was "we are your elders, you have to do absolutely everything we tell you!"..."Stop wearing this, stop eating that, we are going to make you so much better so that when you return to the UK people are going to be amazed at how much less pathetic you are!". If I ever questioned anything the logic was "If you disagree with an elder, you are being a child and so we will treat you like a child" which would resort in them screaming at me and in some cases threatening to physically attack me.

She didn't want me to wear high top converse. I only wear high top converse as I have a rare condition and it's one of the only shoes that I can wear without much discomfort. She wouldn't accept that and for an hour I was humiliated trying on shoes that I knew I couldn't wear.  My partner didn't dare stick up for me. I just had to do as my told and not question anything. They were insistent that I worked. Which of course, is normal and reasonable. I wanted to work. But I couldn't, legally. I didn't know this then. I think they wanted to have me work discretely as a self employed tutor, and if I was kept in the dark about this not being legal, well I suppose that would be the ultimate, the best kept secrets are where the perpetrators are so completely confident and open about it that no one gives them a second thought, as the perpetrator in this case doesn't know they are a perpetrator.  I didn't know at the time that I couldn't legally work. When I did find out, I immediately stopped. I'd only done a few hours. I was in a family, in a country I didn't understand, with a mother who would shout the house down if I didn't obey 100%, who at any point could chuck me out without food, who would tell me how stupid and pathetic I was if I didn't agree with her on everyone, who was now making out how much of a horrible choice her daughter made because I wasn't making tons of money and so the idea that I couldnt work didn't seem to be a possibility, nor something I even had room to ask about.

My partner is just as pushy on me to work and also didn't tell me the truth. But I can't. And so I haven't, since finding out. And so my current situation is this: I have a couple of basic but not properly fitting shirts and trousers that my partner bought me 16 months ago. My converse fell to pieces and a friend bought me some shoes, they aren't high top and they give me a lot of discomfort due to my condition. She wants to pressure me to work. She's ramped that pressure up to an extreme that it's made me unwell. I dont get so much as a hug from her, or even a conversation (sometimes she just point blank ignores me), no recreation whatsoever, no lifts to prepare for when I can potentially work, and sometimes she withholds my meals. Just out of the complete blue with no warning "i'm not getting you lunch, find a student", and so i get together some pennies from the couple of hours I did last year and have a bag of crisps for lunch, having had just a bread roll for breakfast (which she only had because they were for the kids (she runs a school) and she had some left over). Now, she's left me at our condominium she uses for work on weekdays whilst she stays with her parents for the weekend. (she stays with them every weekend). She has been particularly off with me this week to put extra pressure on me to work illegally, and so told me to not go with her to her parents. There aren't any proper meals, here. I had a stale donut, for breakfast and some frozen fries with one of those burger cheese sheets melted on top (I dont get real cheese because she doesn't like cheese, so that's it, i dont get cheese as I can't buy it myself). If I want something different for dinner, then there are a few peppers in the fridge. 

And it's not because they are struggling. My partner, with her parents, will be having every single meal - breakfast, lunch and dinner - at a restaurant in which they buy enough food to turn it into a mini buffet for themselves. And then through the week her parents will be having every single meal, each with enough food to make it a buffet, at a restaurant. They burn through more than a day's worth of work at minimum wage on a single meal. Knowing I'm here with clothes with holes, living off fries. Not because I can't be bothered to work, but because I legally can't. But they cant process outside things. Their demand is that I work and that's all that matters to them. I can't, and so no regular meals for me. I don't even know if I'll be able to eat the next day, maybe next week my partner will just decide to stop paying for my phone SIM, I cant even begin to plan about potentially paying off a debt, which works out as a lot of money in this currency.

I'm accessing this site using a laptop I bought before I made the move, using my partner's place's wifi. 

Skiddaw1

Have to say that on presumption this isn't a wind-up, you need to urgently get yourself out of what's clearly an abusive and toxic relationship and back to the UK, OP....

Section62

emperorstevee said:

Section62 said:

emperorstevee said:

So, I'm not sure why no one has picked up on "how did we get this address?...They gave it to us as that's where we were meant to collect the keys from as he's cancelled his tenancy...oh maybe he did cancel then". 

There's other ways they can get your address - for example by using a tracing agency.  E.g. If you've given your parent's address to your bank then the tracing agency may have run checks and found you were (apparently) living there.

They have the address because they asked for their address for the location to collect the keys from.
 

I think you missed the point - you are using the "how did we get this address?..." question as if it were proof the HA knew you'd cancelled the tenancy, but as there are other ways in which they could obtain the address they have been sending letters to, it doesn't prove what you are hoping it does.

As for the rest of your post, Skiddaw1 is spot on. You need help which is beyond the scope of this forum, or at least of this board. Maybe the Relationships board would be a better place to post for advice on how to get out of your current situation?

The only thing I'd add is that your situation means it is even more important not to make things worse - i.e. using the DD guarantee to get your money back may make it even harder to re-establish yourself in the UK if RBS/NatWest decide to close your account(s) down due to misuse of the process (or if they discover you aren't in the UK).

RAS

It sounds like you need to contact the British Embassy, explain the toxic situation and pray they will fund a return flight to the UK. Hopefully, you've still got your passport? 

You will have to repay the flight cost. You will have to pay the HA debt, but at least you can work in the UK. In the very short-term you may even have to stay with dad, if that's possible?

molerat

Your tenancy agreement will state that you are responsible for returning the keys.  Irrespective of any other arrangements made that will be the underlying factor.  With my LA the tenancy agreements and tenancy termination forms clearly state that the keys must be returned by mid-day on the working day following the end of tenancy or rent will continue to be charged.