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TooManyPoints

Jaybee_16 said:

It appears that all villages are to become 20mph, the only advice is to pay attention to the road signs. My nine mile journey to Tesco in the nearest town used to be a mixture of 30/40/50/70mph but now is:
30/20/30/40/50/40/30(soon to be 20)/50/30/20/30/50/30/20/30/40/50/30/70/30/20/30/20. At least the locals know where the speed camera vans are likely to be as they always stop in the same locations.

Are you saying there are to be 16 changes of limit in nine miles (i.e. one every half mile or so)? And why, if there are only six changes at present, will there be 16 soon? 

Driving at 20 instead of 30 would cost you a minute per mile if you were driving on a dead straight road at a constant speed, with no junctions, traffic lights, zebra crossings, parked cars to negotiate etc etc

Agreed. In fact the average speed of traffic in London is about 12mph (on a good day). A blanket 20mph limit might reduce that to about 10 or 11mph - as you say, negligible. In the London suburbs there are some reasonably lengthy stretches where 30mph might be sustained for a stretch, but even there, the overall impact on journey times would be minimal.

Car_54

bouicca21 said:

You can be done for « furious » cycling under a Victorian statute.

It’s actually “wanton and furious driving”. It applies to “any carriage or vehicle” - motor cars hadn’t been invented. Offences Against the Person Act 1861.

facade

CliveOfIndia said:

But supposedly you could get done for "dangerous cycling" or some such.  I've no idea if this is true or not - I was about 12 years old at the time !  But it's an interesting idea.

Speed limits don't apply to bicycles (or horses, so the Aristos can swoosh past in their golden carriages at full pelt) unless there is a byelaw in place covering a specific area, such as in some Parks.

The catch-all is the offence of "Wanton and furious cycling" which is a criminal offence under section 35 of the Offences Against the Persons Act 1861 (as amended by the Criminal Justice Act 1948 s1(2)) It is normally used as "Causing bodily harm by wanton & furious cycling" after an accident.

ontheroad1970

cymruchris said:

For those living in Wales, or who often travel to Wales - there's an online petition on the Welsh government website against the change, due to it being a blanket speed limit with no local involvement in terms of deciding which roads are or aren't suitable. Personally I support the move for areas around schools/shops/community centres - but there are quite a few stretches where it just doesn't seem practical. The implementation at the moment doesn't seem as good as it could have been.

https://petitions.senedd.wales/petitions/245548

Sorry but that is nonsense.  Each local authority has used its powers to decide the roads that are the exception.  It's been used well in Swansea and Neath Port Talbot areas.  Most A and B roads are 30.  I note the Tories are being active on this, but in true Tory hypocrisy, most of their Senedd members voted in favour of the limits when the law was passed.

ontheroad1970

Aretnap said:

TooManyPoints said:

According to officialdom “it’ll only add a minute” 

So it will - if you're travelling just one mile. Beyond that it will cost you one extra minute for every additional mile you travel.

It won't, of course. Driving at 20 instead of 30 would cost you a minute per mile if you were driving on a dead straight road at a constant speed, with no junctions, traffic lights, zebra crossings, parked cars to negotiate etc etc. But to good approximation no roads in built up areas are like that, and the few that are will mostly be designated as 30 mph roads anyway. In typical urban driving, briefly hitting a top speed of 30rather than 20 mph between stops at traffic lights etc will have a small or negligible impact on journey times. 

Not only that, but at 20, it is easier to emerge from a side street, so it will be closer to evening out.  

sheramber

sevenhills said:

sheramber said:

Highway Code already updated

https://www.gov.uk/speed-limits

National speed limits

The following speed limits apply to all single and dual carriageways with street lights, unless there are signs showing otherwise:

• 30 miles per hour (48km/h) in England, Scotland or Northern Ireland
• 20 miles per hour (32km/h) in Wales

I was referring to the printed version, not every driver is online. That is the .gov website

highway code rule 124  covers ot

 A speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) generally applies to all roads with street lights (excluding motorways) unless signs show otherwise.

TooManyPoints

highway code rule 124  covers ot  

A speed limit of 30 mph (48 km/h) generally applies to all roads with street lights (excluding motorways) unless signs show otherwise.

However, what the Welsh government has done is to take advantage of the RTRA Section 81(2) to amend the default speed limit on "restricted roads" to 20mph. This means that a TRO is now required to amend that default limit to 30mph on the "exceptions" which each local authority has determined. They will also have to provide signage (terminal signs and repeaters) to indicate the limit.  

Martyn1981

Aretnap said:

TooManyPoints said:

According to officialdom “it’ll only add a minute” 

So it will - if you're travelling just one mile. Beyond that it will cost you one extra minute for every additional mile you travel.

It won't, of course. Driving at 20 instead of 30 would cost you a minute per mile if you were driving on a dead straight road at a constant speed, with no junctions, traffic lights, zebra crossings, parked cars to negotiate etc etc. But to good approximation no roads in built up areas are like that, and the few that are will mostly be designated as 30 mph roads anyway. In typical urban driving, briefly hitting a top speed of 30rather than 20 mph between stops at traffic lights etc will have a small or negligible impact on journey times. 

That's certainly been my experience so far, negligible impact on journey times.

However, one road I drove on Saturday through a couple of villages was definitely taking longer, as it typically flows closer to 30mph, with less lights, and vehicles joining and leaving. So over the ~4miles, I did think it had proved me wrong.

But ...... at the point where the road went back to 30mph, you approach a large traffic junction, prior to faster roads and two lanes each way. Typically, you have to stop for about 2 light changes to get through, but this time there were only 2 cars, well ahead of me at the red light, and it changed to green long before I reached it. So not waiting at that choke point, probably evened out the 20mph stretch.

In short, 30mph, allows traffic to get through the villages faster, then queue and wait at the lights, or at least it did.


Regarding a printed Highway Code, I don't understand the point. These are only correct for a moment in time. Each publication will (or may) be different to the one before. I experienced this when in school. My friends and I had a near furious argument about the speed limits for dual carraigeways. I said it was 70mph, they all said it was 60mph. The next day we all arrived, and triumphantly brandished our Highway Codes, their's saying 60, mine saying 70. The 'problem' was that I was younger than them, so got my provisional licence (and HC copy) later. So mine was a newer (later) edition. [Personally, I thought it a bit poor, that none of them had been told of the change by their driving instructors?]

daivid

Martyn1981 said:

Aretnap said:

TooManyPoints said:

According to officialdom “it’ll only add a minute” 

So it will - if you're travelling just one mile. Beyond that it will cost you one extra minute for every additional mile you travel.

It won't, of course. Driving at 20 instead of 30 would cost you a minute per mile if you were driving on a dead straight road at a constant speed, with no junctions, traffic lights, zebra crossings, parked cars to negotiate etc etc. But to good approximation no roads in built up areas are like that, and the few that are will mostly be designated as 30 mph roads anyway. In typical urban driving, briefly hitting a top speed of 30rather than 20 mph between stops at traffic lights etc will have a small or negligible impact on journey times. 

That's certainly been my experience so far, negligible impact on journey times.

However, one road I drove on Saturday through a couple of villages was definitely taking longer, as it typically flows closer to 30mph, with less lights, and vehicles joining and leaving. So over the ~4miles, I did think it had proved me wrong.

But ...... at the point where the road went back to 30mph, you approach a large traffic junction, prior to faster roads and two lanes each way. Typically, you have to stop for about 2 light changes to get through, but this time there were only 2 cars, well ahead of me at the red light, and it changed to green long before I reached it. So not waiting at that choke point, probably evened out the 20mph stretch.

In short, 30mph, allows traffic to get through the villages faster, then queue and wait at the lights, or at least it did.

Similar here. Getting to work typically takes 30 minutes. If I were to do all the new 20 sections at 20 and had managed 30 previously it would be taking about 4 minutes more. But a 1/4 of the new 20 sections I use were never sensible at any more and it is easier to get out of junctions with the other cars going slower. It might take 1 or 2 minutes more on a good day but on a bad day leaving at the 'wrong' time I can easily take 5 minutes or more longer with that delay predominantly on national speed limit sections.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Yorkie1 said:

If you are in Wales, and the street lamps are every 198 yards apart (or less), and there are no repeater signs, then it is a restricted road and subject to 20mph. If there are repeater signs saying 30mph (or otherwise) then it's 30mph (or whatever the repeater signs say).

Basically, the new legislation has simply said that if it looked like a 30mph zone before, it's now a 20mph zone.

The local council will have to pass a byelaw to make it 30mph now, where before it had to use byelaws to make it 20mph.

Looking at news comments I think it's surprising how many people don't know this, we live in North Wales and doing 20mph in the odd village and around town really doesn't make that much difference. You could perhaps question whether there are some areas where an order for 30mph would be more appropriate but the policy in general isn't that bad.

Our village and the next one over are both 20mph and it makes sense, there are people walking, kids on the street, animals around.

The biggest gripe of mine is the main roads are usually 20 miles or more before each major junction and so many people sit with the needle on 40 going at what is really around 36mph. The same people carry on doing 36mph through what were 30mph villages, I guess they'll have to slow down for the villages now, you see them having a good old chit chat with their passenger and looking at the scenery oblivious to the 20 cars behind them, probably the same people who sit in the middle lanes of the motorways, I guess such people are lucky not to encounter a random hazard as it feels they'll be very unprepared, probably the kind of people where 20mph will make the difference between life and death because of their poor concentration on the road and their surroundings. 

I did a 200 mile journey yesterday with about 130 miles of that in Wales, leaving at 3 in the morning with no one on the roads meant being able to drive at a comfortable 45-55mph depending upon the road, had we left at 10 or 11 in the morning the journey would have taken at least an hour longer. 

The BBC reported at the end of one article on the topic the Welsh government may look at other speed limits, I think national speed limit is next and will end up being 50mph in Wales.

It doesn't feel right doing 20mph but like everything else people will get used it.