Van Timing Chain failure less than 114k miles from new

WhiteVanMan123

I'm looking for advice and confirmation that I'm on the right track. I am a self employed sameday courier.

In November/December 2021 I bought a new Vauxhall Combo. It was pre registered, so I am technically the second owner, but I recieved it as new with delivery mileage only. (I'm worried about whether this technically counts as used and whether that is an issue with my approach).

The van has been fully serviced in line with the Vauxhall service schedule (every 25k miles). At the 100k mile service I was advised that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service. I fully intended to do this at that service.

On 31st July 2023 I broke down with a Timing Chain failure with less than 114k miles on the clock. It was recovered by RAC to my local Vauxhall garage. This damaged the engine and a replacement engine was required. Vauxhall quoted me over £10k for this repair which was roughly equivalent to the book value of the van before the failure. This makes the van uneconomic to repair and it is effectively a write off.

I do not dispute that the van was out of warranty (only 60k miles). My argument is that under the Sale of Goods Act, the van has failed to reach the test of reasonable durability (less than 114k miles and less than 20 months) and I therefore have a claim. No van should be a mechanical write off so early.

After much correspondance, today Vauxhall have confirmed that they offer no assistance with the cost of repairs.

Concurrently with dealing with Vauxhall, I have been going through the complaints procedure for the retailer who sold me the van. That has also been exhausted and they have also rejected my complaint.

As I understand it, I have no contract with Vauxhall (who I believe are reponsable), but do have a contract with the retailer (who I do not really feel are responsable) - so have no choice if I pursue further action, but to pursue the retailer.

However, I also paid the deposit on the van through my credit card (deposit c£200, van purchase price c£15,500 plus VAT - VAT which I claimed back). So I'm thinking my best approach at the moment is a Section 75 claim on my credit card.

- Is a Section 75 claim my best next move?
- Can i claim on Section 75 with the ambiguity over whether the van is new/used?
- Can I make a partial claim? Claiming the full amount would be unreasonable given that I have had 20 months / 114k miles use out of the van
- Can I/Should I claim consequential losses as well? I know it's theoretically possible under Section 75. I have not worked since 31st July so would ideally like to claim for loss of income. I am trying to buy a new (used) van this week, so hopefully that would cap my lost income at 8 weeks. (If I'd known where I would be now, 7 weeks ago, I would have got a replacement van sooner - but Vauxhall have been painfully slow responding to me and it has always seemed I am just a few days away from an answer)

Alderbank

WhiteVanMan123 said:

I'm looking for advice and confirmation that I'm on the right track. I am a self employed sameday courier.

In November/December 2021 I bought a new Vauxhall Combo. It was pre registered, so I am technically the second owner, but I recieved it as new with delivery mileage only. (I'm worried about whether this technically counts as used and whether that is an issue with my approach).

The van has been fully serviced in line with the Vauxhall service schedule (every 25k miles). At the 100k mile service I was advised that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service. I fully intended to do this at that service.

On 31st July 2023 I broke down with a Timing Chain failure with less than 114k miles on the clock. It was recovered by RAC to my local Vauxhall garage. This damaged the engine and a replacement engine was required. Vauxhall quoted me over £10k for this repair which was roughly equivalent to the book value of the van before the failure. This makes the van uneconomic to repair and it is effectively a write off.

I do not dispute that the van was out of warranty (only 60k miles). My argument is that under the Sale of Goods Act, the van has failed to reach the test of reasonable durability (less than 114k miles and less than 20 months) and I therefore have a claim. No van should be a mechanical write off so early.

After much correspondance, today Vauxhall have confirmed that they offer no assistance with the cost of repairs.

Concurrently with dealing with Vauxhall, I have been going through the complaints procedure for the retailer who sold me the van. That has also been exhausted and they have also rejected my complaint.

As I understand it, I have no contract with Vauxhall (who I believe are reponsable), but do have a contract with the retailer (who I do not really feel are responsable) - so have no choice if I pursue further action, but to pursue the retailer.

However, I also paid the deposit on the van through my credit card (deposit c£200, van purchase price c£15,500 plus VAT - VAT which I claimed back). So I'm thinking my best approach at the moment is a Section 75 claim on my credit card.

- Is a Section 75 claim my best next move?
- Can i claim on Section 75 with the ambiguity over whether the van is new/used?
- Can I make a partial claim? Claiming the full amount would be unreasonable given that I have had 20 months / 114k miles use out of the van
- Can I/Should I claim consequential losses as well? I know it's theoretically possible under Section 75. I have not worked since 31st July so would ideally like to claim for loss of income. I am trying to buy a new (used) van this week, so hopefully that would cap my lost income at 8 weeks. (If I'd known where I would be now, 7 weeks ago, I would have got a replacement van sooner - but Vauxhall have been painfully slow responding to me and it has always seemed I am just a few days away from an answer)

Welcome to the forum.

You are a sameday courier and it is clear that you bought the van for the purpose of carrying out your business. Indeed you ask whether you can claim for loss of business while it is off the road.

Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act applies only to consumer purchases. Since the credit agreement was entered into wholly or mainly for business purposes section 75 does not apply.

You might possibly have a claim under the Sale of Goods Act, which you refer to, but not under CCA.

Whatever your claim, it doesn't matter whether you bought the van new or used.

WhiteVanMan123

Thankyou.
CAB had advised me that Section 75 was an option even though it was for business purposes. Is it definite that they got that wrong? (I'll dig out the chat log and confirm exactly what they said)

Grumpy_chap

This sounds like a business transaction so not covered under consumer rights.  The OP had the van for their trade as a self-employed same day courier and reclaimed VAT.
Can the OP confirm whether they are self-employed sole trader or via their own Ltd Co?

I am not knowledgeable as to whether S75 can apply when there is a business purchase involved. 
In any event, the most that could be claimed would be the value of the loss, not the full value of the van (which the OP acknowledges).

How has the OP determined the value of the van prior to the failure?  
IMO, £10k seems high for a van that is now 2 yo and 114k miles and was only £15.5k originally.

What is the value of the van as a non-runner?

The maximum loss would be the value of the van prior to the mechanical failure less the value of the van as a non-runner.

Is the repair quote from Vauxhall (£10k) for all new parts?  What is the repair cost for a recondition engine from a specialist?  Of an engine strip down and rebuild?

I suspect that nothing can be claimed from anyone for the loss of earnings.  In this regard, the OP would be expected to mitigate the loss.  That would mean arranging a hire van within the first day or so, not going 7 or 8 weeks without working before addressing the issue.
There is no loss of earnings associated with any period when the OP was on holiday anyway in that period (which covers the bulk of the summer).

WhiteVanMan123 said:

I'm looking for advice and confirmation that I'm on the right track. I am a self employed sameday courier.

In November/December 2021 I bought a new Vauxhall Combo. It was pre registered, so I am technically the second owner, but I recieved it as new with delivery mileage only. (I'm worried about whether this technically counts as used and whether that is an issue with my approach).

The van has been fully serviced in line with the Vauxhall service schedule (every 25k miles). At the 100k mile service I was advised that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service. I fully intended to do this at that service.

On 31st July 2023 I broke down with a Timing Chain failure with less than 114k miles on the clock. It was recovered by RAC to my local Vauxhall garage. This damaged the engine and a replacement engine was required. Vauxhall quoted me over £10k for this repair which was roughly equivalent to the book value of the van before the failure. This makes the van uneconomic to repair and it is effectively a write off.

I do not dispute that the van was out of warranty (only 60k miles). My argument is that under the Sale of Goods Act, the van has failed to reach the test of reasonable durability (less than 114k miles and less than 20 months) and I therefore have a claim. No van should be a mechanical write off so early.

After much correspondance, today Vauxhall have confirmed that they offer no assistance with the cost of repairs.

Concurrently with dealing with Vauxhall, I have been going through the complaints procedure for the retailer who sold me the van. That has also been exhausted and they have also rejected my complaint.

As I understand it, I have no contract with Vauxhall (who I believe are reponsable), but do have a contract with the retailer (who I do not really feel are responsable) - so have no choice if I pursue further action, but to pursue the retailer.

However, I also paid the deposit on the van through my credit card (deposit c£200, van purchase price c£15,500 plus VAT - VAT which I claimed back). So I'm thinking my best approach at the moment is a Section 75 claim on my credit card.

- Is a Section 75 claim my best next move?
- Can i claim on Section 75 with the ambiguity over whether the van is new/used?
- Can I make a partial claim? Claiming the full amount would be unreasonable given that I have had 20 months / 114k miles use out of the van
- Can I/Should I claim consequential losses as well? I know it's theoretically possible under Section 75. I have not worked since 31st July so would ideally like to claim for loss of income. I am trying to buy a new (used) van this week, so hopefully that would cap my lost income at 8 weeks. (If I'd known where I would be now, 7 weeks ago, I would have got a replacement van sooner - but Vauxhall have been painfully slow responding to me and it has always seemed I am just a few days away from an answer)

WhiteVanMan123

Here's the relevent part from CAB:

"Your statutory rights are bound by the Sale of Goods Act 1979. This means any goods supplied should be of a satisfactory quality, last a reasonable amount of time and be free from faults.
However in Business to Business Contracts this term can be excluded in the terms and conditions so please check your terms and conditions thoroughly to check this is not the case.
If you can prove the goods are not of a satisfactory quality,you may be able to seek redress. You may want to negotiate a practical solution or You may be able to seek damages from the trader; damages could be for a monetary amount you feel is reasonable to compensate for the breach and ultimately needs to be negotiated between yourself and the trader. The ‘onus’ or burden of proof is on you to prove any fault is not due to wear and tear, misuse or accidental damage.
As you've paid by credit card and the value is over £100 and less than £30,000, you can hold your credit card company equally liable under section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act. This means that you can address your complaint to your credit card company and request they issue you with a refund. We would recommend that you contact your credit card company as soon as possible to make a claim under section 75. You can find more information about this, and a template letter, here: LINK DELETED."

WhiteVanMan123

Grumpy_chap said:

This sounds like a business transaction so not covered under consumer rights.  The OP had the van for their trade as a self-employed same day courier and reclaimed VAT.
Can the OP confirm whether they are self-employed sole trader or via their own Ltd Co?

I am not knowledgeable as to whether S75 can apply when there is a business purchase involved. 
In any event, the most that could be claimed would be the value of the loss, not the full value of the van (which the OP acknowledges).

How has the OP determined the value of the van prior to the failure?  
IMO, £10k seems high for a van that is now 2 yo and 114k miles and was only £15.5k originally.

What is the value of the van as a non-runner?

The maximum loss would be the value of the van prior to the mechanical failure less the value of the van as a non-runner.

Is the repair quote from Vauxhall (£10k) for all new parts?  What is the repair cost for a recondition engine from a specialist?  Of an engine strip down and rebuild?

I suspect that nothing can be claimed from anyone for the loss of earnings.  In this regard, the OP would be expected to mitigate the loss.  That would mean arranging a hire van within the first day or so, not going 7 or 8 weeks without working before addressing the issue.
There is no loss of earnings associated with any period when the OP was on holiday anyway in that period (which covers the bulk of the summer).

WhiteVanMan123 said:

I'm looking for advice and confirmation that I'm on the right track. I am a self employed sameday courier.

In November/December 2021 I bought a new Vauxhall Combo. It was pre registered, so I am technically the second owner, but I recieved it as new with delivery mileage only. (I'm worried about whether this technically counts as used and whether that is an issue with my approach).

The van has been fully serviced in line with the Vauxhall service schedule (every 25k miles). At the 100k mile service I was advised that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service. I fully intended to do this at that service.

On 31st July 2023 I broke down with a Timing Chain failure with less than 114k miles on the clock. It was recovered by RAC to my local Vauxhall garage. This damaged the engine and a replacement engine was required. Vauxhall quoted me over £10k for this repair which was roughly equivalent to the book value of the van before the failure. This makes the van uneconomic to repair and it is effectively a write off.

I do not dispute that the van was out of warranty (only 60k miles). My argument is that under the Sale of Goods Act, the van has failed to reach the test of reasonable durability (less than 114k miles and less than 20 months) and I therefore have a claim. No van should be a mechanical write off so early.

After much correspondance, today Vauxhall have confirmed that they offer no assistance with the cost of repairs.

Concurrently with dealing with Vauxhall, I have been going through the complaints procedure for the retailer who sold me the van. That has also been exhausted and they have also rejected my complaint.

As I understand it, I have no contract with Vauxhall (who I believe are reponsable), but do have a contract with the retailer (who I do not really feel are responsable) - so have no choice if I pursue further action, but to pursue the retailer.

However, I also paid the deposit on the van through my credit card (deposit c£200, van purchase price c£15,500 plus VAT - VAT which I claimed back). So I'm thinking my best approach at the moment is a Section 75 claim on my credit card.

- Is a Section 75 claim my best next move?
- Can i claim on Section 75 with the ambiguity over whether the van is new/used?
- Can I make a partial claim? Claiming the full amount would be unreasonable given that I have had 20 months / 114k miles use out of the van
- Can I/Should I claim consequential losses as well? I know it's theoretically possible under Section 75. I have not worked since 31st July so would ideally like to claim for loss of income. I am trying to buy a new (used) van this week, so hopefully that would cap my lost income at 8 weeks. (If I'd known where I would be now, 7 weeks ago, I would have got a replacement van sooner - but Vauxhall have been painfully slow responding to me and it has always seemed I am just a few days away from an answer)

I am a self employed sole trader. I am VAT registered and I did reclaim the value of the van. I only use the van for business purposes.
I used online valuation services to get the value of the van. The van was pre registered when I bought it, so came at a significant discount over list price.
I have absolutely no idea what the value of the van is as a non runner (and no idea how to find out).
The 10k quote from Vauxhall is for a new engine and whatever parts are required around that and Labour. It is the only quote they gave me and the only option they provided.
With respect to hiring a van - that is difficult and expensive for Hire and Reward. My margins are not high (when you work out my net profits for hours worked, I'm earning quite a bit lower than minimum wage) - it's probably not an economic option. With hindsight, I would have sorted things out earlier - however at the time it felt reasonable to wait "a day or two" to see what Vauxhall said. But Vauxhall were consistently slow to deal with it and then not really progressing forward. About 2 weeks ago I requested a loan van from them (intention at that stage was if they said no, I would move forward with a new van) - they surprised me - they said yes! The local dealer couldn't give me one however. Then Vauxhall head office couldn't give me one. That was more than another week passed trying to sort that out. With hindsight, I agree with you totally - I should have organised a replacement van sooner - however at the time, in the moment, it appeared totally reasonable to get an answer from Vauxhall. I have not been on holiday, or away from home, or unavailable for work, during this period. The only point I would not agree with you on is that I waited 7 weeks before addressing the issue - there's been a huge amount of added detail in that period which I omitted from this thread to keep the initial post direct and to the point. It is clear from the correspondance that the delays are from Vauxhall. I've been responding to everything immediately and have been expecting them to respond to me and give me answers more promptly than they have.

Alderbank

WhiteVanMan123 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

This sounds like a business transaction so not covered under consumer rights.  The OP had the van for their trade as a self-employed same day courier and reclaimed VAT.
Can the OP confirm whether they are self-employed sole trader or via their own Ltd Co?

I am not knowledgeable as to whether S75 can apply when there is a business purchase involved. 
In any event, the most that could be claimed would be the value of the loss, not the full value of the van (which the OP acknowledges).

How has the OP determined the value of the van prior to the failure?  
IMO, £10k seems high for a van that is now 2 yo and 114k miles and was only £15.5k originally.

What is the value of the van as a non-runner?

The maximum loss would be the value of the van prior to the mechanical failure less the value of the van as a non-runner.

Is the repair quote from Vauxhall (£10k) for all new parts?  What is the repair cost for a recondition engine from a specialist?  Of an engine strip down and rebuild?

I suspect that nothing can be claimed from anyone for the loss of earnings.  In this regard, the OP would be expected to mitigate the loss.  That would mean arranging a hire van within the first day or so, not going 7 or 8 weeks without working before addressing the issue.
There is no loss of earnings associated with any period when the OP was on holiday anyway in that period (which covers the bulk of the summer).

WhiteVanMan123 said:

I'm looking for advice and confirmation that I'm on the right track. I am a self employed sameday courier.

In November/December 2021 I bought a new Vauxhall Combo. It was pre registered, so I am technically the second owner, but I recieved it as new with delivery mileage only. (I'm worried about whether this technically counts as used and whether that is an issue with my approach).

The van has been fully serviced in line with the Vauxhall service schedule (every 25k miles). At the 100k mile service I was advised that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service. I fully intended to do this at that service.

On 31st July 2023 I broke down with a Timing Chain failure with less than 114k miles on the clock. It was recovered by RAC to my local Vauxhall garage. This damaged the engine and a replacement engine was required. Vauxhall quoted me over £10k for this repair which was roughly equivalent to the book value of the van before the failure. This makes the van uneconomic to repair and it is effectively a write off.

I do not dispute that the van was out of warranty (only 60k miles). My argument is that under the Sale of Goods Act, the van has failed to reach the test of reasonable durability (less than 114k miles and less than 20 months) and I therefore have a claim. No van should be a mechanical write off so early.

After much correspondance, today Vauxhall have confirmed that they offer no assistance with the cost of repairs.

Concurrently with dealing with Vauxhall, I have been going through the complaints procedure for the retailer who sold me the van. That has also been exhausted and they have also rejected my complaint.

As I understand it, I have no contract with Vauxhall (who I believe are reponsable), but do have a contract with the retailer (who I do not really feel are responsable) - so have no choice if I pursue further action, but to pursue the retailer.

However, I also paid the deposit on the van through my credit card (deposit c£200, van purchase price c£15,500 plus VAT - VAT which I claimed back). So I'm thinking my best approach at the moment is a Section 75 claim on my credit card.

- Is a Section 75 claim my best next move?
- Can i claim on Section 75 with the ambiguity over whether the van is new/used?
- Can I make a partial claim? Claiming the full amount would be unreasonable given that I have had 20 months / 114k miles use out of the van
- Can I/Should I claim consequential losses as well? I know it's theoretically possible under Section 75. I have not worked since 31st July so would ideally like to claim for loss of income. I am trying to buy a new (used) van this week, so hopefully that would cap my lost income at 8 weeks. (If I'd known where I would be now, 7 weeks ago, I would have got a replacement van sooner - but Vauxhall have been painfully slow responding to me and it has always seemed I am just a few days away from an answer)

I am a self employed sole trader. I am VAT registered and I did reclaim the value of the van. I only use the van for business purposes.

Apologies, the definition of consumer in CCR1974 is different from that in later consumer legislation and does include sole traders. My bad.

WhiteVanMan123

Alderbank said:

WhiteVanMan123 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

This sounds like a business transaction so not covered under consumer rights.  The OP had the van for their trade as a self-employed same day courier and reclaimed VAT.
Can the OP confirm whether they are self-employed sole trader or via their own Ltd Co?

I am not knowledgeable as to whether S75 can apply when there is a business purchase involved. 
In any event, the most that could be claimed would be the value of the loss, not the full value of the van (which the OP acknowledges).

How has the OP determined the value of the van prior to the failure?  
IMO, £10k seems high for a van that is now 2 yo and 114k miles and was only £15.5k originally.

What is the value of the van as a non-runner?

The maximum loss would be the value of the van prior to the mechanical failure less the value of the van as a non-runner.

Is the repair quote from Vauxhall (£10k) for all new parts?  What is the repair cost for a recondition engine from a specialist?  Of an engine strip down and rebuild?

I suspect that nothing can be claimed from anyone for the loss of earnings.  In this regard, the OP would be expected to mitigate the loss.  That would mean arranging a hire van within the first day or so, not going 7 or 8 weeks without working before addressing the issue.
There is no loss of earnings associated with any period when the OP was on holiday anyway in that period (which covers the bulk of the summer).

WhiteVanMan123 said:

I'm looking for advice and confirmation that I'm on the right track. I am a self employed sameday courier.

In November/December 2021 I bought a new Vauxhall Combo. It was pre registered, so I am technically the second owner, but I recieved it as new with delivery mileage only. (I'm worried about whether this technically counts as used and whether that is an issue with my approach).

The van has been fully serviced in line with the Vauxhall service schedule (every 25k miles). At the 100k mile service I was advised that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service. I fully intended to do this at that service.

On 31st July 2023 I broke down with a Timing Chain failure with less than 114k miles on the clock. It was recovered by RAC to my local Vauxhall garage. This damaged the engine and a replacement engine was required. Vauxhall quoted me over £10k for this repair which was roughly equivalent to the book value of the van before the failure. This makes the van uneconomic to repair and it is effectively a write off.

I do not dispute that the van was out of warranty (only 60k miles). My argument is that under the Sale of Goods Act, the van has failed to reach the test of reasonable durability (less than 114k miles and less than 20 months) and I therefore have a claim. No van should be a mechanical write off so early.

After much correspondance, today Vauxhall have confirmed that they offer no assistance with the cost of repairs.

Concurrently with dealing with Vauxhall, I have been going through the complaints procedure for the retailer who sold me the van. That has also been exhausted and they have also rejected my complaint.

As I understand it, I have no contract with Vauxhall (who I believe are reponsable), but do have a contract with the retailer (who I do not really feel are responsable) - so have no choice if I pursue further action, but to pursue the retailer.

However, I also paid the deposit on the van through my credit card (deposit c£200, van purchase price c£15,500 plus VAT - VAT which I claimed back). So I'm thinking my best approach at the moment is a Section 75 claim on my credit card.

- Is a Section 75 claim my best next move?
- Can i claim on Section 75 with the ambiguity over whether the van is new/used?
- Can I make a partial claim? Claiming the full amount would be unreasonable given that I have had 20 months / 114k miles use out of the van
- Can I/Should I claim consequential losses as well? I know it's theoretically possible under Section 75. I have not worked since 31st July so would ideally like to claim for loss of income. I am trying to buy a new (used) van this week, so hopefully that would cap my lost income at 8 weeks. (If I'd known where I would be now, 7 weeks ago, I would have got a replacement van sooner - but Vauxhall have been painfully slow responding to me and it has always seemed I am just a few days away from an answer)

I am a self employed sole trader. I am VAT registered and I did reclaim the value of the van. I only use the van for business purposes.

Apologies, the definition of consumer in CCR1974 is different from that in later consumer legislation and does include sole traders. My bad.

No need to apologise. But that's a relief to hear

Grumpy_chap

Did you pay by a business credit card, or a personal credit card?
If it was a business credit card, the rules seem explicit that S75 does not apply:
https://chargebacks911.com/section-75/#:~:text=The rule protects private individuals,using a business credit card.

If it was a personal credit card, that may be more nuanced, but I am at this stage inclined to agree with @Alderbank which would, of course, mean the advice you posted from CAB is incorrect even though the CAB Advisor had noted it was a business purchase.

WhiteVanMan123

I used a personal credit card. Indeed, it was before I had started trading - the deposit was paid before I had done any work (as I was setting the business up)

Okell

Whether the OP used a business credit card or a personal card is irrelevant.  (In fact I don't think the legislation mentions credit cards at all.  Credit cards were pretty rare 50 years ago... )

s8 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 (legislation.gov.uk) defines a consumer credit agreement as being an agreement between an "individual" (the debtor) and any other person (the creditor).

Under s189 of the Act, the term "individual" is defined as to include:

(a) a partnership consisting of two or three persons not all of whom are bodies corporate; and

(b) an unincorporated body of persons which does not consist entirely of bodies corporate and is not a partnership;

so I think the OP - as a sole trader - is protected by the CCA.


[Edit:  What this link - Explaining Section 75 of the Consumer Credit Act (chargebacks911.com) - means is that if something is purchased on a business credit card, then that purchase is not covered by the CCA unless the business falls within the definition of "individual" in s189.  Or at least that's what I've always understood it to mean...]