Van Timing Chain failure less than 114k miles from new

pinkshoes

WhiteVanMan123 said:

With respect to hiring a van - that is difficult and expensive for Hire and Reward. My margins are not high (when you work out my net profits for hours worked, I'm earning quite a bit lower than minimum wage) - it's probably not an economic option. 

Van issues aside, perhaps this van failure is fate telling you to ditch your poorly paid choice of career and do something else!?!? Earning quite a bit lower than minimum wage?!?!? 

Why not get a minimum wage job instead? Or another sort of driving job that does pay over the minimum wage?

PHK

Potentially, you might have a case against who ever told you the timing belt was good for another 25,000 miles. Clearly it wasn't. 

Grumpy_chap

With the information quoted by @Okell, then S75 can apply.
S75 can only make the card issuer liable to the same extent that the trader would be liable.  
The key now is establishing what the trader is liable for, if anything, and then considering S75 claim if the trader does not meet their obligations.

A solution that does not involve the trader or the credit card may still be best.
The OP has a quote of £10k from Vauxhall to repair the van.
Somehow, the OP needs to get alternative costs for a reconditioned engine, or engine rebuild, from an independent specialist.
This will at least help to inform the OP on their next steps.

WhiteVanMan123

Grumpy_chap said:

With the information quoted by @Okell, then S75 can apply.
S75 can only make the card issuer liable to the same extent that the trader would be liable.  
The key now is establishing what the trader is liable for, if anything, and then considering S75 claim if the trader does not meet their obligations.

A solution that does not involve the trader or the credit card may still be best.
The OP has a quote of £10k from Vauxhall to repair the van.
Somehow, the OP needs to get alternative costs for a reconditioned engine, or engine rebuild, from an independent specialist.
This will at least help to inform the OP on their next steps.

Very vaguely I have been told (by peers) I can get a referb engine fitted for somewhere between 3k and 5k. I really don't wan't to spend that kind of money either though - for what I genuinely feel is a Vauxhall failure and responsibility.
With the options provided by Vauxhall, it is uneconomic to repair.

WhiteVanMan123

pinkshoes said:

WhiteVanMan123 said:

With respect to hiring a van - that is difficult and expensive for Hire and Reward. My margins are not high (when you work out my net profits for hours worked, I'm earning quite a bit lower than minimum wage) - it's probably not an economic option. 

Van issues aside, perhaps this van failure is fate telling you to ditch your poorly paid choice of career and do something else!?!? Earning quite a bit lower than minimum wage?!?!? 

Why not get a minimum wage job instead? Or another sort of driving job that does pay over the minimum wage?

It's more complicated than that. There's a mental health history (that I don't want to go into) for why I'm doing this and it's a lifestyle option as much as anything.

Grumpy_chap

WhiteVanMan123 said:

Very vaguely I have been told (by peers) I can get a referb engine fitted for somewhere between 3k and 5k. I really don't wan't to spend that kind of money either though - for what I genuinely feel is a Vauxhall failure and responsibility.
With the options provided by Vauxhall, it is uneconomic to repair.

That makes sense and I understand your position entirely.
What sometimes gets reported is that the manufacturer quotes, say £10k, then offers a 50% goodwill gesture but their cost is still higher then simply going elsewhere.

There is also the question of how much should you reasonably contribute if a new engine is fitted?
Is there any element of betterment?  The van had a 114k mile worn engine before.

There is also the question of whether there is any liability by Vauxhall (or their partners).  The Service Agent was really only quoting the standard service interval and recommendation for the timing chain.  Does the full service guide make any comment about an earlier interval for "harsh" operating conditions?  Would use as a multi-drop courier fall within "harsh" operating conditions?

I am not asking these questions to challenge, per se, but to act as a prompt to test exactly what the liability might be and the potential counter-position that Vauxhall / the Dealer / Service Agent may well put forward.

The OP needs to spend time (they may have already) reading every bit of the purchase terms, warranty terms and service recommendations for the van so that they are, at the least, knowledgeable, if the Dealer / Vauxhall / Service Agent provides any response that is contradictory.

Okell

@WhiteVanMan123 -  I'm pretty certain that CAB are correct and that your purchase would be covered by the CCA - or at least that you have the same claim against your card provider as you do against the seller.

The problem you will have is in establishing that you have a claim in the first place.  I'm not certain that a timing chain failure after 114,000 miles would necessarily be regarded as not reasonably durable.  

That mileage in less than two years indicates pretty intensive use and, as CAB have already told you, "... The ‘onus’ or burden of proof is on you to prove any fault is not due to wear and tear, misuse or accidental damage."

After 114k miles that might be difficult - though not necessarily impossible.

What do Vauxhall indicate as the recommended replacement mileage?

(As @PHK suggested you might - just might - have a claim against whoever told you "that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service".  Without knowing the exact words they used, it could be argued that telling you that something would need to be changed after another 25k miles was not the same as telling you it would last for another 25k.  You and I might think it the same, but he and others might not)

Tucosalamanca

WhiteVanMan123 said:

Grumpy_chap said:

With the information quoted by @Okell, then S75 can apply.
S75 can only make the card issuer liable to the same extent that the trader would be liable.  
The key now is establishing what the trader is liable for, if anything, and then considering S75 claim if the trader does not meet their obligations.

A solution that does not involve the trader or the credit card may still be best.
The OP has a quote of £10k from Vauxhall to repair the van.
Somehow, the OP needs to get alternative costs for a reconditioned engine, or engine rebuild, from an independent specialist.
This will at least help to inform the OP on their next steps.

Very vaguely I have been told (by peers) I can get a referb engine fitted for somewhere between 3k and 5k. I really don't wan't to spend that kind of money either though - for what I genuinely feel is a Vauxhall failure and responsibility.
With the options provided by Vauxhall, it is uneconomic to repair.

Have you been a van owner before?

I run a small fleet and have recently spent £7.5k on a new engine for a Transit Custom (previously posted on MSE) so feel your pain.

However, once over 100k miles, I generally expect at least one bill over £2k per vehicle and would allow for more on the highest mileage vehicles.
Vauxhall, specifically Vivaro's have a reputation for faults and almost invariably would need a new gearbox and/or injectors at around the 100k mark then happily plod on for another 100k before being scrapped or sold on.
I've had Vitos with expensive electrical faults and Navaras with jumped timing chains and other faults.
VW seem to be generally reliable but you pay such a premium at the outset, that I honestly don't think it works out any cheaper overall.

I think you'd need to be exceptionally lucky to run a van at these kinds of mileage with paying out tbh.

If I can buy a van and it only costs £1,000 per £10,000 miles, I think that I'm doing ok. You appear to have reached that point, so maybe sell on for spares/repairs and consider buying a new van?

Good luck with your claim, I suspect that Vauxhall won't be interested at this kind of mileage.

WhiteVanMan123

Just to clarify - as a sameday courier, I'm the opposite of harsh operating conditions. I don't do multidrop. I provide a direct and dedicated service, so do substantially more motorway work than is standard (I tend to sit on the motorway with cruise control at 60mph - this is for a small van (Vauxhall Combo) that basically drives like a car.

So as an example, there might be a firm in Exeter that requires an envelope delivered to Glasgow - if I get that job, I drive to Exeter, collect the envelope, then drive directly to Glasgow with just the envelope on board.

I've ignored Warranty terms completely - the van is out of warranty and I don't dispute that (there's another story here which probably isn't worth going into in too much detail - the warranty was never clear - between 60k and 100k miles I had a repair done under warranty at a Vauxhall dealers - no charge - all great - a couple of weeks later they called me and said that they thought it was a 100k Warranty, but it was actually a 60k mile warranty and Vauxhall wouldn't pay them. I agreed on that occasion to pay their fee).

I've been throught the purchase terms from the retailer - there is nothing of significance there - it's all about delivery terms! (I've archived their terms through archive.is in case they change them later).

With respect to Service recommendations - I've struggled to get clear information anywhere and wouldn't know where to find it. The timing chain service interval (125k miles) is based solely on what I've been told by the garage. I've mentioned it many times in my correspondance to Vauxhall head Office/Local Dealer and they haven't queried that at all.

I'm happy to be challenged on what I say if necessary - I want honest feedback and I understand that is a part of the process - I don't want to be told what I want to hear, to take this further and then find things aren't what I thought!

I've had a further email from Vauxhall this afternoon referring me to the Motor Ombudsman if I am unhappy with their decision. I have therefore escalated the case to the Motor Ombudsman. TBH I don't know much about them, but I figure that isn't the primary tract of the route to getting me the best result. My view from what I know so far is that Credit Card S75 is my best option.

I agree and accept your point that my van with a new engine is better than my van with its old engine. However, so far as I know, that doesn't substantially increase the resale value (if at all). The way I look at the maths is that the van was purchased for £15,500, was worth £10,000 before the failure (vague, inaccurate figure, for illustration only) and is now worth scrap value only (based on their repair costs). I therfore consider I've had £5,500 worth of use out of the van, so I'm out of pocket by £10k minus whatever the scrap value is. (I'm not totally clear on VAT impact on figures here - so treat as for illustration only).

Vauxhall made no goodwill offer at all (I was expecting them to, and then expecting tough decisions) - indeed, they have made clear they will contribute nothing. My local Vauxhall garage have once said verbally that they would try and do something with the labour costs if I opted for the repair. They gave no indication what that would be and I expect it would still be prohibatively expensive.

WhiteVanMan123

Okell said:

@WhiteVanMan123 -  I'm pretty certain that CAB are correct and that your purchase would be covered by the CCA - or at least that you have the same claim against your card provider as you do against the seller.

The problem you will have is in establishing that you have a claim in the first place.  I'm not certain that a timing chain failure after 114,000 miles would necessarily be regarded as not reasonably durable.  

That mileage in less than two years indicates pretty intensive use and, as CAB have already told you, "... The ‘onus’ or burden of proof is on you to prove any fault is not due to wear and tear, misuse or accidental damage."

After 114k miles that might be difficult - though not necessarily impossible.

What do Vauxhall indicate as the recommended replacement mileage?

(As @PHK suggested you might - just might - have a claim against whoever told you "that the Timing Chain needed to be replaced at the 125k mile service".  Without knowing the exact words they used, it could be argued that telling you that something would need to be changed after another 25k miles was not the same as telling you it would last for another 25k.  You and I might think it the same, but he and others might not)

i think the crux of my claim is that the van has failed irrevocably through mechanical failure after 114,000 miles after being fully serviced at the advised intervals. I don't feel that 114,000 miles is a "reasonable" lifespan for a new van.

Some of the detail I didn't go into was that Vauxhall Head Office asked my permission to strip things down to establish the exact detail of the failure. I gave that permission, my local Vauxhall dealer however declined to do so because they knew what the problem was. This is part of the email they sent me:

"I have looked into this matter for you. I accept that Vauxhall customer care are happy to pay for further diagnostics however the vehicle does not need further diagnostics, the fault has been confirmed and requires a replacement engine. The timing chain has snapped and the pistons have hit the valves, this damages both the pistons and the valves. At this point a replacement engine is the most financially viable option if you are looking to repair the vehicle."