Help: Ebay seller made small claims court summons

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

I suspect this is more just eBay process rather than T&Cs.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?id=4210#not-described

Their full policy for this is above, I might be missing it but I don't see it saying eBay may refund without a return/the buyer may keep the item if the seller doesn't adhere to the policy or voluntarily refund.

@shonadk if you'd like to send me a private message with a link or item number for the seller I'd be happy to look and see if they look like a business or private seller. 

soolin

The policy of allowing a buyer to keep the item where seller refuses a return once the case has Beene scalatex is clear on eBay com but I can’t find it on ebayUk at the moment. 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?id=4210#:~:text=If%20we%20determine%20that%20the%20seller%20did%20not%20meet%20their,required%20to%20return%20the%20item

I’m of the opinion, having seen this sort of behaviour before , that whilst the seller can take the OP to court, they are unlikely to succeed , and just end up losing more money.

Forget eBay, the law is not stupid. If all a seller had to do to avoid paying out was to just not allow a return, either by refusing to supply a suitable label or by refusing to supply an address then buyers wouldn’t stand a chance. if OP keeps all their evidence, show they used the eBay money back guarantee correctly and tried to return the item but was blocked by the seller , even advising the seller that the item was available for collection,I can’t see a court finding much sympathy for the seller. 

Also I can’t see any reasons, disability or otherwise, why a court would allow the case to be heard  in an area suitable for the seller rather than the prescribed area of the defendant. 

I echo all the advice though to start collecting every bit of paperwork, every email every message in case. If anything official comes from the court deal with it in a timely manner , and good luck. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

soolin said:

The policy of allowing a buyer to keep the item where seller refuses a return once the case has Beene scalatex is clear on eBay com but I can’t find it on ebayUk at the moment. 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?id=4210#:~:text=If%20we%20determine%20that%20the%20seller%20did%20not%20meet%20their,required%20to%20return%20the%20item

Thanks @soolin 

It's in the UK version as well.

Seller return requirements

-----

When the seller is responsible for return shipping, the seller must provide a return shipping label or another return method that is acceptable to the buyer. eBay may provide the buyer with a return shipping label on the seller's behalf and will charge the seller for the cost of the label

Deciding the outcome when the item doesn't match the listing

If we determine that the seller did not meet their return requirements:

The buyer will receive a refund for the full cost of the item and original postage, and

The seller will be required to reimburse eBay for the amount of the refund, and

The buyer may not be required to return the item



OP the messages from eBay about the return should still be here:

https://mesg.ebay.co.uk/mesgweb/ViewMessages/0/All

or in the recycling bin. Do they say anything about not having to return the item?

soolin said:

the law is not stupid. If all a seller had to do to avoid paying out was to just not allow a return, either by refusing to supply a suitable label or by refusing to supply an address then buyers wouldn’t stand a chance. 

This is why you end up with involuntary bailees, the buyer should take reasonable care of the goods and notify the owner twice with an offer for the goods to be collected. If after that the involuntary bailee no longer wishes to suffer the burden of reasonable care they may sell the goods for a fair market value and then account to the owner of the goods for the funds minus selling costs. 

It's a burden that bears no benefit at all to the involuntary bailee but does at least not require them to have to do the leg work in returning the goods. 

For the most part even for £100 the average person won't sue a buyer, some may stand up for themselves or some may do it out of principle but the main point is the seller didn't mitigate their losses by providing the return label so even if the court deemed OP liable for the value of the bag (minus the eBay fees and outward postage) you'd hope they wouldn't award the seller any costs due to their behaviour by which point they would be worse off than they are now. 

tightauldgit

I think the OP has encountered what I would refer to as a complete zoomer. From the mentions made here of the contents of the claim I think there is 0 chance of them succeeding.

If the seller chose to refund before they received the item back and the return label was cancelled then for Ebay that's effectively 'refund and let them keep the item'. I think the problem (based on a few things I have seen and my own experience) is that it's very easy to do this by accident as part of the process and it's not clear how it's supposed to work when you haven't done it before. 

The claimant sounds like a numpty though so I wouldn't stress too much about it. A judge isn't going to entertain someone rambling on about you being on drugs and owing them hundreds of pounds a day in interest. Plus someone who can't calculate a basic percentage probably isn't the legal genius they think they are. 

Just make sure youve got your ducks in a row, confirmation from ebay of the terms and what was agreed, your comms to the seller etc. and follow the instructions on anything you get from the court, You'll be fine,

DullGreyGuy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

soolin said:

The policy of allowing a buyer to keep the item where seller refuses a return once the case has Beene scalatex is clear on eBay com but I can’t find it on ebayUk at the moment. 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?id=4210#:~:text=If%20we%20determine%20that%20the%20seller%20did%20not%20meet%20their,required%20to%20return%20the%20item

Thanks @soolin 

It's in the UK version as well.

Seller return requirements

-----

When the seller is responsible for return shipping, the seller must provide a return shipping label or another return method that is acceptable to the buyer. eBay may provide the buyer with a return shipping label on the seller's behalf and will charge the seller for the cost of the label

Deciding the outcome when the item doesn't match the listing

If we determine that the seller did not meet their return requirements:

The buyer will receive a refund for the full cost of the item and original postage, and

The seller will be required to reimburse eBay for the amount of the refund, and

The buyer may not be required to return the item



OP the messages from eBay about the return should still be here:

https://mesg.ebay.co.uk/mesgweb/ViewMessages/0/All

or in the recycling bin. Do they say anything about not having to return the item?

But is that actually baked into the terms and conditions? Or is there a term that refers to the Returns Policy or whatever that text has been taken from?

There is often problems relying on random bits of text taken from one of the thousands of pages eBay has if its not in the terms the parties have agreed to abide by and be bound by. 

tightauldgit

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

soolin said:

The policy of allowing a buyer to keep the item where seller refuses a return once the case has Beene scalatex is clear on eBay com but I can’t find it on ebayUk at the moment. 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?id=4210#:~:text=If%20we%20determine%20that%20the%20seller%20did%20not%20meet%20their,required%20to%20return%20the%20item

Thanks @soolin 

It's in the UK version as well.

Seller return requirements

-----

When the seller is responsible for return shipping, the seller must provide a return shipping label or another return method that is acceptable to the buyer. eBay may provide the buyer with a return shipping label on the seller's behalf and will charge the seller for the cost of the label

Deciding the outcome when the item doesn't match the listing

If we determine that the seller did not meet their return requirements:

The buyer will receive a refund for the full cost of the item and original postage, and

The seller will be required to reimburse eBay for the amount of the refund, and

The buyer may not be required to return the item



OP the messages from eBay about the return should still be here:

https://mesg.ebay.co.uk/mesgweb/ViewMessages/0/All

or in the recycling bin. Do they say anything about not having to return the item?

But is that actually baked into the terms and conditions? Or is there a term that refers to the Returns Policy or whatever that text has been taken from?

There is often problems relying on random bits of text taken from one of the thousands of pages eBay has if its not in the terms the parties have agreed to abide by and be bound by. 

I think the issue just stems from the way Ebay process returns (and apologies if i'm telling you things you already know) - they give the seller three options one of which is to have the item returned and the other is to refund and let the buyer keep the item. I believe that once you select the "have the item returned" option (and then Ebay to process the return label) that it then puts up the 'refund' option. You're meant to wait (i think?) until the item is returned and in your possession and then refund and Ebay close the case. The problem is that's not clear from the instructions and if you hit refund before the label has been used it just closes the case and kills the return - so effectively you've refunded and told the buyer to keep the item unintentionally. I 'think' this is what I did on one of my returns and had a dispute with Ebay over it but they just said I had to take it up with the buyer and ask them to return it. 

Now I'm not 100% sure if that completely waives a seller's rights to ask for the item back - if they've gone immediately and said they made an error for example then I think they might still have been able to ask for it back. But I would think the combination of Ebay saying you don't need to return, the buyer not interacting in any way to try to process the return and the buyer being a complete clownshoe should probably be enough to win any court case.  

soolin

tightauldgit said:

DullGreyGuy said:

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

soolin said:

The policy of allowing a buyer to keep the item where seller refuses a return once the case has Beene scalatex is clear on eBay com but I can’t find it on ebayUk at the moment. 

https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy/ebay-money-back-guarantee-policy?id=4210#:~:text=If%20we%20determine%20that%20the%20seller%20did%20not%20meet%20their,required%20to%20return%20the%20item

Thanks @soolin 

It's in the UK version as well.

Seller return requirements

-----

When the seller is responsible for return shipping, the seller must provide a return shipping label or another return method that is acceptable to the buyer. eBay may provide the buyer with a return shipping label on the seller's behalf and will charge the seller for the cost of the label

Deciding the outcome when the item doesn't match the listing

If we determine that the seller did not meet their return requirements:

The buyer will receive a refund for the full cost of the item and original postage, and

The seller will be required to reimburse eBay for the amount of the refund, and

The buyer may not be required to return the item



OP the messages from eBay about the return should still be here:

https://mesg.ebay.co.uk/mesgweb/ViewMessages/0/All

or in the recycling bin. Do they say anything about not having to return the item?

But is that actually baked into the terms and conditions? Or is there a term that refers to the Returns Policy or whatever that text has been taken from?

There is often problems relying on random bits of text taken from one of the thousands of pages eBay has if its not in the terms the parties have agreed to abide by and be bound by. 

I think the issue just stems from the way Ebay process returns (and apologies if i'm telling you things you already know) - they give the seller three options one of which is to have the item returned and the other is to refund and let the buyer keep the item. I believe that once you select the "have the item returned" option (and then Ebay to process the return label) that it then puts up the 'refund' option. You're meant to wait (i think?) until the item is returned and in your possession and then refund and Ebay close the case. The problem is that's not clear from the instructions and if you hit refund before the label has been used it just closes the case and kills the return - so effectively you've refunded and told the buyer to keep the item unintentionally. I 'think' this is what I did on one of my returns and had a dispute with Ebay over it but they just said I had to take it up with the buyer and ask them to return it. 

Now I'm not 100% sure if that completely waives a seller's rights to ask for the item back - if they've gone immediately and said they made an error for example then I think they might still have been able to ask for it back. But I would think the combination of Ebay saying you don't need to return, the buyer not interacting in any way to try to process the return and the buyer being a complete clownshoe should probably be enough to win any court case.  

You are correct in the way returns work but I don’t think it is particularly ‘easy’ to accidentally refund with waiting for the item to be returned. The process is quite clear , if you opt to have the item returned you either click to send a label or confirm that one has been sent, or click to allow eBay to provide a label. That’s it as far as a return goes. If you go back into the case you can then either see that you are waiting for the return and it’s clear you must refund within 2 days of return arriving, or you can click to close the case and refund. From memory if you opt to refund it does say that closes the case and the return label won’t be used or charged for as it would be unused. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

DullGreyGuy said:

But is that actually baked into the terms and conditions? Or is there a term that refers to the Returns Policy or whatever that text has been taken from?

There is often problems relying on random bits of text taken from one of the thousands of pages eBay has if its not in the terms the parties have agreed to abide by and be bound by. 

The Money Back Guarantee Terms linked to previously form part of the User Agreement under (12) additional terms

https://www.ebay.co.uk/help/policies/member-behaviour-policies/user-agreement?id=4259

That agreement is between the user and eBay, I assume if either contravened the UA and caused the other to suffer a loss that loss would be reclaimable as damages (assuming terms were classed as fair). 

Issues like this are between two users, both are bound by the UA and the issue stems from using eBay so I can only assume the the terms of the UA are governing behaviour, however whether the UA would supersede something like the Torts (Interference with Goods) Act 1977 I have no idea.

If it didn't and the OP lost but was told by eBay to dispose of the goods then OP may in turn have a claim against eBay (not that I'm suggesting they pursue one). 

zackary71

It's a tricky one, but two things I can add. Unsure if there's an actual claim or just sabre rattling from the Seller. If they've actually issued a claim, they'll be an MCOL stamp and MC reference on the paperwork. If there isn't, I reckon it's the threat of court that they hope may make you settle. I took a company to Small Claims mid-covid, and incurred an MCOL fee to get it registered. £80 Rings a bell. Would the seller really pay £80 for a £91 claim ? Doubtful.

Secondly,  with my claim, as the Plaintiff, the venue was my home territory in Newcastle Upon Tyne, not the Defendant's at the other end of the country. I did have Disability mitigation though, so it's possible in your situation, it would be assigned near to you. I had my day in (virtual) Court, and lost😭 Good luck.

Exodi

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

you'd hope they wouldn't award the seller any costs due to their behaviour by which point they would be worse off than they are now. 

tightauldgit said:

The claimant sounds like a numpty though so I wouldn't stress too much about it. A judge isn't going to entertain someone rambling on about you being on drugs and owing them hundreds of pounds a day in interest.

I'd agree with the points above about the judge looking down on their incoherent and emotionally charged behavior. 

However, I'd encourage the OP not to die by the same sword.

shonadk said:

I explained that I had disposed of the bag (via eBay messaging) and advised continued harassment, I would go to the police as they had previously sent many unpleasant messages

It is incredibly common for defendants to claim harassment in response to being chased for a debt. So much so that I imagine every judge rolls their eyes and sighs whenever an alleged debtor suggests it.

Judges will be hearing debtors day in and day out claim that a creditor chasing them for payment is harassment. Obviously it's not reasonable to suggest a creditor can not contact a debtor just because they don't like them doing so.

I'm not suggesting that the plaintiff has not been harassing the OP, but I'd instead cite their unreasonable and unpleasant behavior rather than specifically alleging harassment.

Claiming harassment feels like the litigative equivalent of whiplash.