Help: Ebay seller made small claims court summons

shonadk

I purchased a beach bag from eBay in July for total £91.45. Found on measurements when it arrived, to be significantly larger than advertised. Sent seller pics. Seller told me I had photographed it in a way it would never be used so refused return, but it was an unstructured fabric bag so that was exactly how it looked worn.

I opened a case with eBay who said seller had to accept return. Seller accepted return with 2nd class postage but not covering the cost of the bag. They already had bad feedback from someone else saying they lied about returns so I was concerned and queried it. They refused to budge, so next day went to print the label, only it didn’t work and the link said I had been fully refunded.

I messaged them to explain I couldn’t return the bag as the label no longer worked, but I didn’t want it. They didn’t reply do after about a month, I donated to charity as had no use for the bag.

They then sent me a grammatically awful letter threatening me with small claims and insisting upon immediate bag return. I explained that I had disposed of the bag (via eBay messaging) and advised continued harassment, I would go to the police as they had previously sent many unpleasant messages and said they were suing lots of buyers and were going to sue me… that I was an idiot who didn’t understand the law etc etc. They have been really nasty to me in every message, and have even said in the small claims summons that I likely suffer from mental health problems, drunkenness, or drug use.

Ebay  said they never got involved with the dispute and the seller refunded me and closed the case themselves.

They are asking if there is a court case, it be heard in London as they are registered disabled.  I live in Newcastle upon Tyne. Also, that they get the bag AND 8% interest per day on the cost of the bag from 8th August forward. However, they have calculated this themselves to be an additional £732 per day. 

EBay have said I have followed all their rules and it was the seller who refunded me, not eBay. EBay have sent me a transcript email supporting that I followed their T&Cs to the letter.

Very distressed. Please advise what I can do. I contacted my home insurance legal advice line who were useless and very neutral suggesting the seller could win this. 

HampshireH

I cannot get my head around why you would give a £91 bag to charity rather than pay the £5 to return it and then argue over the postage costs later.

Sounds like the seller refunded you expecting the bag back. The fact you took the refund and effectively kept the bag (giving it away is irrelevant) means the seller is out of pocket. Or do eBay's rules say you don't have to return it?

They have a right to bring the claim..... Doesn't mean they will win.

The form you received should tell you next steps but if you do have legal on your home insurance it's worth making use of it (maybe try again and get a Different person) but I'm inclined to agree with them about the seller winning the case.

That said if you have followed all rules set out by eBay and that includes not having to return the item or making it available to be returned then your defence should be fairly straight forward, especially if their case is full of errors.



 

Miser1964

Maybe worth trying to speak to your local Citizens Advice. If you've been refunded the £91.45 but didn't return the bag for whatever reason and gave it away, then the seller has some legitimacy in asking for a payment. 

pinkshoes

shonadk said:

I purchased a beach bag from eBay in July for total £91.45. Found on measurements when it arrived, to be significantly larger than advertised. Sent seller pics. Seller told me I had photographed it in a way it would never be used so refused return, but it was an unstructured fabric bag so that was exactly how it looked worn.

I opened a case with eBay who said seller had to accept return. Seller accepted return with 2nd class postage but not covering the cost of the bag. They already had bad feedback from someone else saying they lied about returns so I was concerned and queried it. They refused to budge, so next day went to print the label, only it didn’t work and the link said I had been fully refunded.

I messaged them to explain I couldn’t return the bag as the label no longer worked, but I didn’t want it. They didn’t reply do after about a month, I donated to charity as had no use for the bag.

They then sent me a grammatically awful letter threatening me with small claims and insisting upon immediate bag return. I explained that I had disposed of the bag (via eBay messaging) and advised continued harassment, I would go to the police as they had previously sent many unpleasant messages and said they were suing lots of buyers and were going to sue me… that I was an idiot who didn’t understand the law etc etc. They have been really nasty to me in every message, and have even said in the small claims summons that I likely suffer from mental health problems, drunkenness, or drug use.

Ebay  said they never got involved with the dispute and the seller refunded me and closed the case themselves.

They are asking if there is a court case, it be heard in London as they are registered disabled.  I live in Newcastle upon Tyne. Also, that they get the bag AND 8% interest per day on the cost of the bag from 8th August forward. However, they have calculated this themselves to be an additional £732 per day. 

EBay have said I have followed all their rules and it was the seller who refunded me, not eBay. EBay have sent me a transcript email supporting that I followed their T&Cs to the letter.

Very distressed. Please advise what I can do. I contacted my home insurance legal advice line who were useless and very neutral suggesting the seller could win this. 

When you replied that you didn't want it, did you specifically ask them to send another return postage pre-paid label? Did you let them know that if they didn't send a pre-paid envelope you were going to give it to charity?

You had a refund so the bag was not yours to give away. So in theory, yes, you either own the seller £91.45 or the bag.

Any chance the charity shop still has it?!?!

On the other hand, the seller did CHOOSE to refund, and by doing this were letting you keep the item as they didn't want it back. If this was a mistake, they should have sent another prepaid label immediately.

Was this an official "Letter Before Action" and sent in the post?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

shonadk said:

 Also, that they get the bag AND 8% interest per day on the cost of the bag from 8th August forward. However, they have calculated this themselves to be an additional £732 per day. 

Really sorry to hear of your ordeal OP

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work-out-interest

Work out the interest
If you’re owed money by another business, you can charge interest on a late commercial payment.
For other types of debt, the rate is usually 8%.
To calculate this, use the steps below.
Work out the yearly interest: take the amount you’re claiming and multiply it by 0.08 (which is 8%).
Work out the daily interest: divide your yearly interest from step 1 by 365 (the number of days in a year).
Work out the total amount of interest: multiply the daily interest from step 2 by the number of days the debt has been overdue.

That works out to roughly 2 pence a day, from the 8th of Aug until today the amount of interest due on the debt is 81 pence, should the seller win the court will not award them more the 8% yearly so please don't freak out about this.

shonadk said:

They are asking if there is a court case, it be heard in London as they are registered disabled.  I live in Newcastle upon Tyne. 

Is the seller a business or just someone selling off their personal stuff? If they are registered as a private seller does it appear that is true or do they have 57 different bags to sell?

My understanding is that you can apply to have the case heard locally to you if they are a business. 

As Pinkshoes asks, did the seller send a letter before action in the post which said what was due and if not paid within x days they would take the matter to court? 

OP there is a bit of problem here in that really the bag should have been made available for them to collect as I think you became an involuntary bailee. 

I would hope they would not be awarded costs due to their behaviour of failing to provide the label as eBay require which would have avoided all this except for a loss of £3.50ish to them. 

I think you are going to need help to defend this claim, do you qualify for legal aid?

https://www.gov.uk/check-legal-aid

If not I would recommend posting on here*

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/

but you need to be calm and look at this without the emotion or stress, instead working through it in a concise manner so you can give the information required and understand how to apply the advice given  

If you are able to post back on how this progresses it would no doubt be useful to someone else in the future, or of course ask questions here but I've not seen much detailed advice on dealing with small claims processes on the MSE boards I visit  

*not sure what board is best, try and pick a busier one that relates to your situation. 

To add, a basic guide here to how the process works, I don't really like to post a long document as it can be overwhelming but equally it might help you understand the process and calm the situation for you a bit.  

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/CJC/Publications/Other+papers/Small+Claims+Guide+for+web+FINAL.pdf

shonadk

HampshireH said:

I cannot get my head around why you would give a £91 bag to charity rather than pay the £5 to return it and then argue over the postage costs later.

Sounds like the seller refunded you expecting the bag back. The fact you took the refund and effectively kept the bag (giving it away is irrelevant) means the seller is out of pocket. Or do eBay's rules say you don't have to return it?

They have a right to bring the claim..... Doesn't mean they will win.

The form you received should tell you next steps but if you do have legal on your home insurance it's worth making use of it (maybe try again and get a Different person) but I'm inclined to agree with them about the seller winning the case.

That said if you have followed all rules set out by eBay and that includes not having to return the item or making it available to be returned then your defence should be fairly straight forward, especially if their case is full of errors.



 

Thanks for your reply. Ebay T&Cs are that I did not have to return it after the seller closed the case. I messaged the seller for a new label but they ignored me. I incorrectly assumed it was case closed and they did not want it back

shonadk

pinkshoes said:

shonadk said:

I purchased a beach bag from eBay in July for total £91.45. Found on measurements when it arrived, to be significantly larger than advertised. Sent seller pics. Seller told me I had photographed it in a way it would never be used so refused return, but it was an unstructured fabric bag so that was exactly how it looked worn.

I opened a case with eBay who said seller had to accept return. Seller accepted return with 2nd class postage but not covering the cost of the bag. They already had bad feedback from someone else saying they lied about returns so I was concerned and queried it. They refused to budge, so next day went to print the label, only it didn’t work and the link said I had been fully refunded.

I messaged them to explain I couldn’t return the bag as the label no longer worked, but I didn’t want it. They didn’t reply do after about a month, I donated to charity as had no use for the bag.

They then sent me a grammatically awful letter threatening me with small claims and insisting upon immediate bag return. I explained that I had disposed of the bag (via eBay messaging) and advised continued harassment, I would go to the police as they had previously sent many unpleasant messages and said they were suing lots of buyers and were going to sue me… that I was an idiot who didn’t understand the law etc etc. They have been really nasty to me in every message, and have even said in the small claims summons that I likely suffer from mental health problems, drunkenness, or drug use.

Ebay  said they never got involved with the dispute and the seller refunded me and closed the case themselves.

They are asking if there is a court case, it be heard in London as they are registered disabled.  I live in Newcastle upon Tyne. Also, that they get the bag AND 8% interest per day on the cost of the bag from 8th August forward. However, they have calculated this themselves to be an additional £732 per day. 

EBay have said I have followed all their rules and it was the seller who refunded me, not eBay. EBay have sent me a transcript email supporting that I followed their T&Cs to the letter.

Very distressed. Please advise what I can do. I contacted my home insurance legal advice line who were useless and very neutral suggesting the seller could win this. 

When you replied that you didn't want it, did you specifically ask them to send another return postage pre-paid label? Did you let them know that if they didn't send a pre-paid envelope you were going to give it to charity?

You had a refund so the bag was not yours to give away. So in theory, yes, you either own the seller £91.45 or the bag.

Any chance the charity shop still has it?!?!

On the other hand, the seller did CHOOSE to refund, and by doing this were letting you keep the item as they didn't want it back. If this was a mistake, they should have sent another prepaid label immediately.

Was this an official "Letter Before Action" and sent in the post?

1. Yes I did.
2. No I didn't because they didn't reply for a month so thought they were done.
3. I can check charity shop
4. The seller CHOSE to refund me, cancelled the ebay label and did not send me a new postage label that I requested.
5. Yes a letter was sent and I replied that I no longer had the bag in my posession. They were horrible and abusive to me and there was no attept at amicable resolution. I would have returned the bag had they been nicer. Stupid me. 

shonadk

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

shonadk said:

 Also, that they get the bag AND 8% interest per day on the cost of the bag from 8th August forward. However, they have calculated this themselves to be an additional £732 per day. 

Really sorry to hear of your ordeal OP

https://www.gov.uk/make-court-claim-for-money/work-out-interest

Work out the interest
If you’re owed money by another business, you can charge interest on a late commercial payment.
For other types of debt, the rate is usually 8%.
To calculate this, use the steps below.
Work out the yearly interest: take the amount you’re claiming and multiply it by 0.08 (which is 8%).
Work out the daily interest: divide your yearly interest from step 1 by 365 (the number of days in a year).
Work out the total amount of interest: multiply the daily interest from step 2 by the number of days the debt has been overdue.

That works out to roughly 2 pence a day, from the 8th of Aug until today the amount of interest due on the debt is 81 pence, should the seller win the court will not award them more the 8% yearly so please don't freak out about this.

shonadk said:

They are asking if there is a court case, it be heard in London as they are registered disabled.  I live in Newcastle upon Tyne. 

Is the seller a business or just someone selling off their personal stuff? If they are registered as a private seller does it appear that is true or do they have 57 different bags to sell?

My understanding is that you can apply to have the case heard locally to you if they are a business. 

As Pinkshoes asks, did the seller send a letter before action in the post which said what was due and if not paid within x days they would take the matter to court? 

OP there is a bit of problem here in that really the bag should have been made available for them to collect as I think you became an involuntary bailee. 

I would hope they would not be awarded costs due to their behaviour of failing to provide the label as eBay require which would have avoided all this except for a loss of £3.50ish to them. 

I think you are going to need help to defend this claim, do you qualify for legal aid?

https://www.gov.uk/check-legal-aid

If not I would recommend posting on here*

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/

but you need to be calm and look at this without the emotion or stress, instead working through it in a concise manner so you can give the information required and understand how to apply the advice given  

If you are able to post back on how this progresses it would no doubt be useful to someone else in the future, or of course ask questions here but I've not seen much detailed advice on dealing with small claims processes on the MSE boards I visit  

*not sure what board is best, try and pick a busier one that relates to your situation. 

To add, a basic guide here to how the process works, I don't really like to post a long document as it can be overwhelming but equally it might help you understand the process and calm the situation for you a bit.  

https://www.judiciary.uk/wp-content/uploads/JCO/Documents/CJC/Publications/Other+papers/Small+Claims+Guide+for+web+FINAL.pdf

Thank you for such a kind and helpful response. It's an individual seller (confirmed with ebay), but they have several of the bag that remain listed on ebay. Looks like they are selling over 100 items. 

Yes they sent an aggressive bad grammar mispelled letter of action. I realise now it was naively ignored as I thought it was a bullying tactic. I did reply to them via ebay messenger.

Ebay have said that we have both agreed to their T&Cs and their T&Cs are that I did not have to return once the seller closed the case. I did contact them for a new postage label. They ignored me. 

martindow

Have you received an official notification from the court or is this just a letter from the seller?  If just a letter I would ignore it as it is likely bluster.

If it is from the court it is important that you make your defence before the required date or you will lose by default.  Keep it brief and to the point, a time line, requests for labels, etc. and include Ebay's message you have mentioned. Despite their request to keep it local to them I would ask for it to be transferred to your local court, but often in simple cases there is no hearing and the judge decides on the paperwork alone.

If it does come to a hearing it is very informal and you should not be afraid of that.  If your seller writes as you describe and acts in the same way, the judge will not be impressed.

RFW

shonadk said:

Thank you for such a kind and helpful response. It's an individual seller (confirmed with ebay), but they have several of the bag that remain listed on ebay. Looks like they are selling over 100 items. 

Yes they sent an aggressive bad grammar mispelled letter of action. I realise now it was naively ignored as I thought it was a bullying tactic. I did reply to them via ebay messenger.

Ebay have said that we have both agreed to their T&Cs and their T&Cs are that I did not have to return once the seller closed the case. I did contact them for a new postage label. They ignored me. 

Just regarding where you are with the case. It usually has to go to the defendant's location, I don't know if there's any ability for the claimant to attend remotely. You should be able to call the court and ask for some help, they'll either recommend someone to help or help themselves. Failing that try the CAB or a local solicitor that has free drop in sessions.

I would suggest printing out all the correspndence from the seller and Ebay, giving clarity to Ebay telling you to dispose of the item. You can use this in court. If you have a receipt from the charity you donated to that may also help. Basically as much information as possible, lay it out clearly.

If you lose the case, which is always possible, you will be given time to pay and if you have problems paying you can ask for time to pay or agree a payment plan with the court, you would only lose the cost of the bag, any seller expenses (minimal) and correct interest. The way the seller has laid out the claim will work in your favour, judges tend not to like that kind of thing.

My guess would be that once you defend it you probably won't hear any more. The seller will have to pay more money to go to court to hear your defence and they probably won't want to do that.

My final caveat is that I haven't brushed up on my small claims knowledge lately so some of what I've said may be slightly out of date. So if anyone with more recent knowledge has any points to clarify I'll gladly update this.

DullGreyGuy

shonadk said:

pinkshoes said:

shonadk said:

I purchased a beach bag from eBay in July for total £91.45. Found on measurements when it arrived, to be significantly larger than advertised. Sent seller pics. Seller told me I had photographed it in a way it would never be used so refused return, but it was an unstructured fabric bag so that was exactly how it looked worn.

I opened a case with eBay who said seller had to accept return. Seller accepted return with 2nd class postage but not covering the cost of the bag. They already had bad feedback from someone else saying they lied about returns so I was concerned and queried it. They refused to budge, so next day went to print the label, only it didn’t work and the link said I had been fully refunded.

I messaged them to explain I couldn’t return the bag as the label no longer worked, but I didn’t want it. They didn’t reply do after about a month, I donated to charity as had no use for the bag.

They then sent me a grammatically awful letter threatening me with small claims and insisting upon immediate bag return. I explained that I had disposed of the bag (via eBay messaging) and advised continued harassment, I would go to the police as they had previously sent many unpleasant messages and said they were suing lots of buyers and were going to sue me… that I was an idiot who didn’t understand the law etc etc. They have been really nasty to me in every message, and have even said in the small claims summons that I likely suffer from mental health problems, drunkenness, or drug use.

Ebay  said they never got involved with the dispute and the seller refunded me and closed the case themselves.

They are asking if there is a court case, it be heard in London as they are registered disabled.  I live in Newcastle upon Tyne. Also, that they get the bag AND 8% interest per day on the cost of the bag from 8th August forward. However, they have calculated this themselves to be an additional £732 per day. 

EBay have said I have followed all their rules and it was the seller who refunded me, not eBay. EBay have sent me a transcript email supporting that I followed their T&Cs to the letter.

Very distressed. Please advise what I can do. I contacted my home insurance legal advice line who were useless and very neutral suggesting the seller could win this. 

When you replied that you didn't want it, did you specifically ask them to send another return postage pre-paid label? Did you let them know that if they didn't send a pre-paid envelope you were going to give it to charity?

You had a refund so the bag was not yours to give away. So in theory, yes, you either own the seller £91.45 or the bag.

Any chance the charity shop still has it?!?!

On the other hand, the seller did CHOOSE to refund, and by doing this were letting you keep the item as they didn't want it back. If this was a mistake, they should have sent another prepaid label immediately.

Was this an official "Letter Before Action" and sent in the post?

1. Yes I did.
2. No I didn't because they didn't reply for a month so thought they were done.
3. I can check charity shop
4. The seller CHOSE to refund me, cancelled the ebay label and did not send me a new postage label that I requested.
5. Yes a letter was sent and I replied that I no longer had the bag in my posession. They were horrible and abusive to me and there was no attept at amicable resolution. I would have returned the bag had they been nicer. Stupid me. 

Assuming they are selling as a business for a fixed price not just selling their own second hand property or taking bids, then they dont get a choice about refunding the monies if you notified them of rejecting the goods within 14 days of receipt then the clock starts ticking on them having a statutory duty to refund you. 

In the normal world having received a refund for the goods then the title/ownership of the goods is back with the merchant and you cannot unilaterally decide to give them away or such. Ideally you'd keep the goods and make them available for return. If it's a bag it can probably go on top of a closet or such and not cause too much problem. Clearly with much larger goods people wont have space to keep indefinitely so generally the recommendation is to write to them and give a deadline after which you will sell the goods and the monies you raise will be available to the merchant. 

Potentially you have a get out clause if the T&Cs explicitly state that if the vendor closes the case before the return is received then they waive their rights to the goods but I suspect this is more just eBay process rather than T&Cs. I know when I rejected a return because the packaging came back bashed to hell, large dents and holes then eBay said they'd close the case and that the buyer should claim off their courier's insurance (which they hadn't bought) but there was nothing in the terms to support this. 

As others have said, statutory interest is 8% per year of simple interest, not per day.