Electric Heating/Hot Water Conundrum

QrizB

Callyb69 said:

The consumer board definitely needs replacing (it predates the Ark!) and there's no RCDs so shes concerned about safety but the electrician seems to think he can only change over some of the electrics to the new board if we keep the eco 10/storage heaters.

I would expect there to be two separate consumer units. One will be permanently live and will supply all the normal circuits (lighting, sockets, cooker etc.) and one will only be live during off-peak hours and will supply the storage heaters and the immersion heater.

I would also have expected your electrician to be able to replace them both! Maybe if you share a photo we can help you understand what the problem might be.

Callyb69

QrizB said: 
I would expect there to be two separate consumer units. One will be permanently live and will supply all the normal circuits (lighting, sockets, cooker etc.) and one will only believe during off-peak hours and will supply the storage heaters and the immersion heater.

I would also have expected your electrician to be able to replace them both! Maybe if you share a photo we can help you understand what the problem might be.

Yes, there are two boards in an old metal cupboard.
He never mentioned about changing both, no idea why not. I'll get a pic over the weekend as will be going to the property. 

Gerry1

Another vote that daytime rates for heating is a terrible idea, especially in bungalow with nothing upstairs to reduce heat loss.

As they're old NSHs, it might be useful to do the Storage Heater Sanity Test.

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/78890149/#Comment_78890149

Scot_39

E10 and old NSH are in my opinion a good combination.

Mine are completely manual - brick temp thermostat input dial and manual air flow vent output control.  About 25+ years old now I guess - but luckily no asbestos.

I charge the bricks to a lower level 3 times a day (12-5am, 1-4pm and 8-10pm GMT off peak slots here) - leave the vent alone (on min) and I think that gives me a flatter temp minimum base heat profile for minimal daily dial fiddling and importantly COST.  Just adjust input up as cools drop as warms in out of winter.

I'd have to charge it warmer overnight on e7 - and be too warm in morning etc or cold be evening.  My neighbour went e7 for cheaper rates - the following year went Quantum hhr - as was resorting to plug ins at premium peak rate.

I'd be tempted to leave well alone if operational and save the money for a bit.

Or perhaps upgrade to a more modern programmable temperature controlled and fan assisted nsh model. I'd probably just do main living room first - my current plan if ever lost e10 and forced onto e7.

(But if ever come into lump sum money - would probably bite the bullet and go heat pump. Without wet rads currently - likely air to air - which can then be a lot cheaper - but iirc no grant.
Just not sure the market mature enough and common uk tech being pushed as good as should be - especially so for colder parts of uk in deep winter)

As for NSH - many here focus on top end - HHR models like Dimplex Quantum,  Elnur Ecombi etc - but other modern ones below that level (and maybe £200+ in price depending on size) like Creda TSRE (owned by Dimplex )  share some of the desirable controllability features of top end HHRs - including timer programmable air temperature thermostat fan assisted output controls and self adapting storage charging . And closer in price to the panels you mentioned - which arent that cheap.

And don't maybe just think new - there's an active market in reconditioned or second hand pretty modern nsh too - as others have been seduced by "fancy" ceramic types.

If system functional - maybe better to spend on insulation first - if not that good.

And or then spend it on air to air ashp if have cash as have no wet radiators etc at moment - and get the COP savings that drop electricity heating costs closer to gas.  Flat rate in at 30p , COP 2 heat out  = 15p effective, cop= 3 10p effective etc.

My off peak is c20p, my peak is c40p and annually use c75% off peak - so average c25p overall. In winter heat pushes the ratio to highs c90% - so maybe 8p lower vs sr on average some days.

But like e7, e10 pricing is very variable - by region and supplier.

E7 often cheaper off peak rates with many suppliers (about 4-5p off peak rate at mine EOnNext EM before July)  might work for more modern devices though.

I am sceptical of some of these panels and their heat retention claims.  A nsh is designed to hold heat and give a decent output between charges - so 17+ hours heating  (between for many on e7 - the 7hr in one block charge window) - how many fancy panels can say the same ?
I use a £50 oil filled radiator - it has a thermal mass too - so a little slow to heat but for a good while after thermostat stops the electric supply it gives useful heat out (the opposite of say a fan heater) - so could legitimately market that as having heat retention benefits -  doesn't mean its a good replacement for a NSH though.

Scot_39

And on hot water.

I have an immersion heater - which I just let the thermostat do its thing.

I've tried the one a day, once every 2 day thing etc - in summer at any rate - the savings if any were lost in the noise really.  And forget to switch it back on a couple of days too - which was annoying.

Others have resorted to kettles etc - even compared to heating their hw cylinders by gas let alone electric. 

Each to their own.

It's not cheap part of my total bill - I'd say c£185 at 20p rate - c15% annual bill - as run a cold house cf many friends. (Possibly too cold on occasions for comfort despite layering up last year due to prices even with epg.    But with no ebss - my net costs will be much higher this. So going to have to be careful for foreseeable.)

And remember you'll still be paying to heat water plus a share of the new on demand supply boiler you might replace tank with.

Callyb69

Scot_39 said:

E10 and old NSH are in my opinion a good combination.

Mine are completely manual - brick temp thermostat input dial and manual air flow vent output control.  About 25+ years old now I guess - but luckily no asbestos.

I charge the bricks to a lower level 3 times a day (12-5am, 1-4pm and 8-10pm GMT off peak slots here) - leave the vent alone (on min) and I think that gives me a flatter temp minimum base heat profile for minimal daily dial fiddling and importantly COST.  Just adjust input up as cools drop as warms in out of winter.

I'd have to charge it warmer overnight on e7 - and be too warm in morning etc or cold be evening.  My neighbour went e7 for cheaper rates - the following year went Quantum hhr - as was resorting to plug ins at premium peak rate.

I'd be tempted to leave well alone if operational and save the money for a bit.

Or perhaps upgrade to a more modern programmable temperature controlled and fan assisted nsh model. I'd probably just do main living room first - my current plan if ever lost e10 and forced onto e7.

(But if ever come into lump sum money - would probably bite the bullet and go heat pump. Without wet rads currently - likely air to air - which can then be a lot cheaper - but iirc no grant.
Just not sure the market mature enough and common uk tech being pushed as good as should be - especially so for colder parts of uk in deep winter)

As for NSH - many here focus on top end - HHR models like Dimplex Quantum,  Elnur Ecombi etc - but other modern ones below that level (and maybe £200+ in price depending on size) like Creda TSRE (owned by Dimplex )  share some of the desirable controllability features of top end HHRs - including timer programmable air temperature thermostat fan assisted output controls and self adapting storage charging . And closer in price to the panels you mentioned - which arent that cheap.

And don't maybe just think new - there's an active market in reconditioned or second hand pretty modern nsh too - as others have been seduced by "fancy" ceramic types.

If system functional - maybe better to spend on insulation first - if not that good.

And or then spend it on air to air ashp if have cash as have no wet radiators etc at moment - and get the COP savings that drop electricity heating costs closer to gas.  Flat rate in at 30p , COP 2 heat out  = 15p effective, cop= 3 10p effective etc.

My off peak is c20p, my peak is c40p and annually use c75% off peak - so average c25p overall. In winter heat pushes the ratio to highs c90% - so maybe 8p lower vs sr on average some days.

But like e7, e10 pricing is very variable - by region and supplier.

E7 often cheaper off peak rates with many suppliers (about 4-5p off peak rate at mine EOnNext EM before July)  might work for more modern devices though.

I am sceptical of some of these panels and their heat retention claims.  A nsh is designed to hold heat and give a decent output between charges - so 17+ hours heating  (between for many on e7 - the 7hr in one block charge window) - how many fancy panels can say the same ?
I use a £50 oil filled radiator - it has a thermal mass too - so a little slow to heat but for a good while after thermostat stops the electric supply it gives useful heat out (the opposite of say a fan heater) - so could legitimately market that as having heat retention benefits -  doesn't mean its a good replacement for a NSH though.

Thanks for the detailed reply. 
I do hope my mum can get used to NSH and Eco 10, she's been so used to gas and everything, instantly on demand over the years.
Guess winter usage and bills will be the main test!

We're getting the loft insulated and the windows overhauled, so regardless of heating system, it will hopefully not escape too quickly.

As for water heating, it also seems like such a waste to be heating a huge cylinder but only using a fraction of it, as it would mainly be for hand and dish washing. Will have to research more about the best way to tackle this. Someone had posted a link to an on demand hot water heater, so will see if something small and powerful might be the answer.

Guess she's just going to have to get used to living differently and using off peak times for high energy consumption, until it becomes the norm for her. 

Reed_Richards

No baths or showers?  If you have a tank full of hot water that you heated cheaply then it's much more economical to use that than to use an instant electric shower.

Qyburn

Regarding hot water, how good is the insulation on modern cylinders, is it significantly better that those from say 15 years ago? That would make a difference as to how viable off peak water heating would be. I had a third hand comment from someone saying that a family member's fancy Megaflow only lost one degree in 24 hours.

Callyb69

Reed_Richards said:

No baths or showers?  If you have a tank full of hot water that you heated cheaply then it's much more economical to use that than to use an instant electric shower.

The shower that's currently fitted is electric, not mains, hense why only the kitchen and bathroom sink taps are serviced by the huge water tank.

Callyb69

Qyburn said:

Regarding hot water, how good is the insulation on modern cylinders, is it significantly better that those from say 15 years ago? That would make a difference as to how viable off peak water heating would be. I had a third hand comment from someone saying that a family member's fancy Megaflow only lost one degree in 24 hours.

The current cylinder is def not modern, it's a copper tank that's wrapped in one of those red padded jackets, so doubt it's holding the majority of the heat in.
It's around 2ft wide by 4ft tall (not sure how many litres/gallons that it holds) but I think it's a lot to heat for the usage.
There just seems a lot to consider at the min.