Electric Heating/Hot Water Conundrum

QrizB

lohr500 said:

During the off peak period on Economy 7 or Economy 10, ALL the electricity should be metered at the off peak rate. So straight away there is good reason to get the meters sorted out.

Do be aware that your supplier's answer to any metering question is likely to be "change the current meters for a smart meter", and the outcome of that is likely to be that you end up on Economy 7 (as suppliers seem unwilling to support E10 on smart meters).

This might be desirable, or might not.

Scot_39

QrizB said:

lohr500 said:

During the off peak period on Economy 7 or Economy 10, ALL the electricity should be metered at the off peak rate. So straight away there is good reason to get the meters sorted out.

Do be aware that your supplier's answer to any metering question is likely to be "change the current meters for a smart meter", and the outcome of that is likely to be that you end up on Economy 7 (as suppliers seem unwilling to support E10 on smart meters).

This might be desirable, or might not.

My e10 is on a smart meter, but it is an old smets1, but I agree their seems to be issues when others are upgraded from posts here.

But e10 and other non e7 are now a tiny fraction (sub 15%) of all what Ofgem term restricted meters (500,000 in c4million as of 2000(*)) and that's out of a total of c29m.  So of total supplies - that's 1.7%.  And had been falling sharply (e.g. from 700,000 in 2015).

(*) figures from 
https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/docs/2020/08/statutory_consultation_extending_protections_for_non-e7_restricted_meter_customers_slc_22g.pdf

There have been posts here - not many but a few - that make me worried about what is likely to happen if and when that meter upgraded - e.g. for new comms hub standard or end of certification.

Which is ridiculous in a way - as all smart meters have the ability to cope with multiple rates and multiple time periods.

So I follow with interest how others are coping on e7 or with nsh upgrades to see how I might cope - in the event - including upgrading to newer hhr or possibly close to (eg fan assisted lot 20 like Creda tsre to save a couple of hundred per device) nsh models or even the work MSE forumites like @mmmmikey doing on smart contactor and agile type tariffs.

EssexHebridean

Allowing that it appears that a meter change is going to be necessary, and in that event the chances of retaining E10 are fairly slim, then I'd suggest that some research on how E7 works, it's timings etc in your mum's region may be worthwhile.

I can't recall if you mentioned who the current supplier to the property was? If it is British gas then you may want to look at a supplier change before heading in the direction of the meter change, as BG still have issues with E7 and smart meters as far as I am aware.

On the other points, I'd heartily agree with those saying that changing the NSH's for standard panel heaters - no matter how glittery and shiny they are claimed to be - would be a financial disaster. I think you are there with that one now though yourself. On the subject of the water heating, with no bath and presumably relatively small amounts of hot water use I would suggest looking at the instantaneous hot water units that are available - I suspect that it may prove cheaper to simply heat what is needed, as it is needed, than to heat the tank every night. I have no personal experience of these however so am happy to be proved wrong if others are aware of reasons why this would not be a good arrangement. Another possibility for the existing immersion is to add a further jacket over the top of the current one, and if your Mum is a suitably early riser she may find it works for her for the majority of the time to simply flick the immersion on to heat up half an hour before the power switches off from the off-peak rate. We found that worked well for us generally - and saved a lot of money over leaving the tank on to heat through the night as it avoids it clicking back on whenever the thermostat tells it is needs to. In our case we just needed a "full heat" overnight into a monday morning to ensure that MrEH had really hot water available for his "post weekend" shave! 

Callyb69

Hi all, so sorry for the radio silence but I've been ill for several weeks now. 

The electric is now with Octopus after a change from Eon who were rubbish when we got in touch with them to say about being the new owner.

The two meters do incur a daily standing charge each, so around £1.05 per day. Octopus charge an off peak rate of 16p-ish and standard rate of 30p instead of the peak rate of 36p.

They aren't bothered about any time difference so hopefully it's in my mum's favour for better usage times for her.
They did however try to get her to switch to E7 & a smart meter.
She's going to check out the difference in cost but is most likely to ride out this winter on E10 and make any necessary changes next year if she doesn't get on with it.

As for the electrics, have got a different company coming to price up fitting a new consumer board and other bits, so will see what they say about moving everything over vs not being able to.

Thanks all, your input has been invaluable.

RHemmings

Mstty said:

So as to not jump on the (don't get rid of the storage heaters but replace them vibe) and some good pointers to cheap instantaneous hot water but........

Don't believe the hype that storage heaters are bad. The newer high retention heat ones are much better at delivering the heat you need charged up on cheaper electricity. Any panel type electric heater is just so bad that's why you have received the responses you have.

Could you please link to a new high retention storage heater. Just one example would be enough. I tried googling and there are too many links to other products, some mentioning 'German clay'. 

Scot_39

Some vendors seperate  nsh into hhr and lot 20 others don't.

A quick google finds panel vendor site like this that does and lists 3 types.

Edit : Link fixed - thanks Gerry1 - and I thought I just copied and pasted it here

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/storage-heaters/high-heat-retention-storage-heaters

Of those 3 - the Dumplex Quantum and Elnur ECombi HHR are propably mentioned most frequently in posts here in mse energy forum.

And a quick google finds manufacturers sites like 
 
https://www.dimplex.co.uk/quantum

Or 

https://www.elnur.co.uk/product/ecombi-hhr-high-heat-retention-storage-heaters/


There may well be others sold by others elsewhere too.

And HHR is a certification - an actual EN standard so you can find some details - so its not just marketing.

But note some modern lot 20 share some of the characteristics, fan assisted, programmable timer air not brick temp regulation etc for £100s less per unit at top sizing end.

And a few regulars here contributing to those posts even have a mix of hhr and older non hhr storage heaters.

I watch with interest as its a possible upgrade route if lose my E10 but yet to commit to the £1000s required just for my 3.

Gerry1

RHemmings said:

Mstty said:

So as to not jump on the (don't get rid of the storage heaters but replace them vibe) and some good pointers to cheap instantaneous hot water but........

Don't believe the hype that storage heaters are bad. The newer high retention heat ones are much better at delivering the heat you need charged up on cheaper electricity. Any panel type electric heater is just so bad that's why you have received the responses you have.

Could you please link to a new high retention storage heater. Just one example would be enough. I tried googling and there are too many links to other products, some mentioning 'German clay'. 

Sadly, Mstty seems to have been banned so I'll barge in.

Dimplex Quantum seems to be the brand leader and is well regarded on this forum.  Not cheap to buy but cost effective to run if gas, oil or a heat pump aren't possible.

Just make sure you fully understand how to program it to your requirements, especially if you run it from a single 24h supply (which is a bit of a bodge).  If in doubt go for the next larger size to avoid the top-up peak rate heater kicking in too often if there's a lengthy Beast From The East.

There are several forumites who have Quantums who will happily advise.

Edit: Telepathy at work again, just beaten to it by Scot_39 !

Edit 2: A link above was broken.  Here's the correct version.

https://www.heatershop.co.uk/storage-heaters/high-heat-retention-storage-heaters

mnbvcxz

Thoughts;

as people have suggested stay where you are and take stock for a bit.

Economy 7 and more so 10 are becoming harder to get. The future is probably random time periods when electricity is cheap, it would be a shame to invest now if you had to update again in three years because fixed time periods were being altered. This is an odd period of time, the future is uncertain.

If you mother is entertaining quotes of £14000 just for radiators then she can afford nearly any solution... She might not be comfortable with all of them mind.

Ask your electrician for ideas, they should be used to putting in standard electric solutions. There are standard mass produced wall mounted panel heaters for instance that are robust, fairly priced, basic and as effective as any other peak rate heater. Equally they are probably experienced and set up to upgrade storage heaters and will know what it will take. Just be a little careful they will often also happily go along with stupid ideas if paid... At a guess you might budget very roughly  say £400 a room for a basic panel heater or £1000 for a quantum high heat retention storage heater. 

Have you actually checked how old the storage heaters are? You never know they might already have been updated in the last few years. They might be modern quantum's but tatty. 

Keep an eye on your mothers actual electricity consumption in her new bungalow. It's hard to know how economical it is. If she only uses a little electricity then it starts not to matter really about trying to save money. Live extravagantly. You need to use quite a bit to make moneysaving solutions pay back. Equally if she is using loads then you have more of a mandate to invest in new stuff. 

Good luck.

Scot_39

Dimplex - with their RF - had a tie in with Ovo at one stage (a package of RF Quantums, the dimplex hub and wifi linked internet access to supplier iirc - and they ran some trials with another supplier re variable time of use tariffs a couple of years ago and then it all seemed to go quiet.

https://company.ovo.com/ovo-and-glen-dimplex-heating-ventilation-announce-partnership-to-drive-the-decarbonisation-of-heating/

and

https://www.edfenergy.com/media-centre/news-releases/kaluza-edf-dimplex-join-forces-cut-carbon-through-smart-heating

The latest versions of the Dimplex RF manuals - have added a one line sentence about variable time of use charging - as a configuration option - but not found out much more.

And I would be amazed if others weren't working on it in background.

As for instance in recent weeks - on quite a few days - agile tariffs have been cheaper early to mid afternoon - than even overnight - some days. And as BEV charging overnight grows - that might increase. (And yet ironically - suppliers and Ofgem seem to be doing their best to kill off E10 and RTS tariffs that give their off peak rates for a few of the 10 hours - at a similar time in many regions.)

At least one poster here even looking at DIY automation for cheapest tariff slots.

mnbvcxz

Scot_39 said:

Dimplex - with their RF - had a tie in with Ovo at one stage

You may be proved right Scot_39 I may be too paranoid. But you don't often read about people using them in non standard ways. There was a scary thread on the camelot forums suggesting they struggled https://camelot-forum.co.uk/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?t=388 the main problem was the algorithm was a bit rigid and hard to customise for a different style of usage.  Some people do suggest a slave mode would fix everything but its not mentioned much...

But they may well make them work with future tarrifs. Or you will need a mod of a next version radiator. Who knows, its a fast changing world.