A couple of questions about gantry signage and speed limits

boxosox

Driving on the M25 last night and we approached roadworks.

First question:  the four lanes were reducing to two lanes.  First, the gantries had "get over arrows" but I carried on driving in lane 1 (as everyone crammed into lane 3 and 4 causing over a mile of stationary traffic) as the lane wasn't actually closed.  They changed to red Xs further up, so I moved into lane 3.  However, there were temporary metal signs saying the lane was closing in 800 then 600 then 400yds. 
So, legally, when is the lane closed?  When the get over arrow is shown, when red Xs are shown or when the roadworks signs say they're closed?  

Second question:  The gantries brought the speed limit down to 40mph.  Very quickly we passed the works and the motorway opened out to 4 lanes again.  The overhead gantries for the rest of my journey were all off - there was never a NSL sign.  So technically, the limit remained at 40mph for 15-odd miles from J17 to where I got off.

But the traffic quickly sped-up to 70mph+ once past the cones and at one point I got flashed and honked by a lorry as they came up close behind me and pulled around at speed.  So after a few miles I decided, for our safety, to also speed up to 70.

Legally, is there a point one can assume that NSL is now active?  Or could I be done for speeding?  And, if I do get a ticket, would there be any defence (like safety or poor use of digital signage)?

la531983

If they signs are blank, its NSL. Cant believe you drove miles at 40 with no alternative speed on display!

Not every gantry has a speed camera btw, these are the yellow boxes at the side of some of them, easy to know if one has flashed you or not.

I dont believe cameras deal with people driving in lanes where X's are displayed, this would be a police matter if spotted, I am happy to be put right on this point though.

RandomTourist

Red X over the lane is equivalent to a red traffic light. Lane is closed at the first red-X gantry. Camera enforced. There's been a biggish publicity campaign about this. Likely outcome an awareness course or conditional offer of fixed penalty and 3 points, just as for traffic lights.

la531983

There we go then, but as not every gantry has a camera you are probably fine.

If you arent though, you can contest it and appeal it in court, saying the info was conflicting with the info on the metal signs, and try your  luck in front of a magistrate and potentially have the fine raised when found guilty.

Brie

get over arrows simply mean that you need to move over when it's safe to do so.  as long as you weren't driving in a lane with a red X you're fine.  

as for speed limits I get that it is confusing.  Different situation but there's a road near us which was always 40mph.  And then the changed the road a fair bit and during the roadworks took down all the mph signs.  Nothing was put back up after the work finished.  So given that this is in an urban area I assume the limit is now 30 but I often get cars on my bumper flashing as if they believe the limit is still 40 despite there being no signs to support that.  In my situation I will continue to do 30 there.  In your situation I would speed up to the minimum normal speed of 70 or slower if that's what other traffic is doing.

user1977

la531983 said:

If they signs are blank, its NSL.

Do you have a cite for that? If the gantry sign after a 40 limit is blank, I would assume it's faulty, not that you're legally in the clear to go back to 70.

boxosox

RandomTourist said:

Red X over the lane is equivalent to a red traffic light. Lane is closed at the first red-X gantry. Camera enforced. There's been a biggish publicity campaign about this. Likely outcome an awareness course or conditional offer of fixed penalty and 3 points, just as for traffic lights.

This is what I thought.  Seems odd that they allow the roadworkers to put out contradictory signage.  Just before the red X was a sign saying the lanes closed in 400yds.

boxosox

la531983 said:

If they signs are blank, its NSL. Cant believe you drove miles at 40 with no alternative speed on display!

Not every gantry has a speed camera btw, these are the yellow boxes at the side of some of them, easy to know if one has flashed you or not.

I dont believe cameras deal with people driving in lanes where X's are displayed, this would be a police matter if spotted, I am happy to be put right on this point though.

Can you point to any proper documentation regarding this?  I believed that a limit is in force until signage changes that limit. There was no signs displaying NSL, so I thought that the limit remained at 40mph.

la531983

user1977 said:

la531983 said:

If they signs are blank, its NSL.

Do you have a cite for that? If the gantry sign after a 40 limit is blank, I would assume it's faulty, not that you're legally in the clear to go back to 70.

You want me to find a cite to say that if a sign at Mile 0 says 40, and then subsequently every sign for FIFTEEN MILES afterwards are blank (as has happened here), that its fine to drive at NSL?

Surely this is just common sense. What about cars joining the motorway after the last 40 sign?

Now, if its just ONE sign missing between two 40 signs, thats entirely different.

boxosox

*there WERE no signs

Sorry, can't work out how to edit my posts.

boxosox

la531983 said:

user1977 said:

la531983 said:

If they signs are blank, its NSL.

Do you have a cite for that? If the gantry sign after a 40 limit is blank, I would assume it's faulty, not that you're legally in the clear to go back to 70.

You want me to find a cite to say that if a sign at Mile 0 says 40, and then subsequently every sign for miles afterwards are blank (as has happened here), that its fine to drive at NSL?

Surely this is just common sense. What about cars joining the motorway after the last 40 sign?

Now, if its just ONE sign missing between two 40 signs, thats entirely different.

There are digital signs on the slip roads displaying the variable limit in force, so they would be shown 40mph also.

Or, at least, that's my understanding