UK Parking Control - Notice to Hirer receieved, can parking company go back to RK if notice to hire

taffer87

Received notice to hire yesterday for an alleged parking breach on 8 July. Apparently, UKPC had sent notice to RK to VWFS on 11 July who made a representation giving my details on 19 July (but did not send the hire agreement etc).

The notice to the hirer is dated 22 July 2023 but did not come with any of the other required documents (notice to RK, hire agreement, statement of liability) so is defective.

The notice to the hirer also does not refer to 21 Days anywhere but refers only to 28 days after which they say the hirer will be liable.

I want to appeal after 21 days so they have no chance of sending the right documents and also means i can then use the POPLA (if needed and the parking company rejects).

I have also managed to get correspondence from VWFS re what they received and sent back and they only sent the parking company one standard letter with my lease term and details rather than the required documents.

The notice to hirer to me however claims that the parking company have received the hire agreement and statement of liability, which is evidently a misstatement.

The parking company does not know who the driver is and there are 3 people insured on the vehicle.

My question is:

1. I am confident that I will win the notice of hirer-related appeal (using templates from the money-saving expert forum) but does this mean the hire company can go back to the RK (my lease company, VWFS again) as VWFS in their communication with me mentioned that if they get the charge notice for the same alleged incident again they will pay it and then charge me as per the hire agreement. VWFS has also for whatever random reason sent me a letter of authority to be able to talk to the parking company which probably only made sense if I did not have a notice to hirer in my own name. 

From my research and limited knowledge, by law, they may have a claim against the RK as the RK did not supply them with the correct docs to transfer liability but they still issued me a 'notice to hirer' which they should not have done? Not sure what happens in practice?

PS - also the notice to RK (which I managed to get from lease company, VWFS) does not state the length of parking and just says parking on a designated disabled bay without permit. Note: The driver had to collect a carpet and parked right in front of the carpet shop for around 5 minutes to collect as was a heavy load and they told the driver its fine (and the car parking was also completely empty with many other spaces inc. disabled available at the time as it was during the working week and working hours) so maybe that's another avenue to contact the retailer (carpet right) but the driver doesn't want the hassle and the hirer wants to deal with it as the named hirer

https://ibb.co/k39dbzS
https://ibb.co/R4Xy0ZP

Umkomaas

Once the lease company has transferred liability, UKPC can't revert to the RK. You appealing as the hirer, after receipt of the NtH, will confirm they have transferred liability to you. Then, just kill it off at POPLA. 

Coupon-mad

Appeal on day 20, using EdnaBasher's appeal for NTH cases where the hirer is an individual.

You will win at POPLA and they can't revert to the vehicle owner/keeper firm once they hear from you

taffer87

Thank you, please see draft appeal to hire company below that I will submit on 11 August 2023 which is 20 days from 22 July 2023 (date of notice of hirer)

Welcome any comments/suggestions:

Dear UK Parking Control

RE: PCN No. xxxxxxxxx

I would like you to know I (as the keeper and hirer of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you state took place on 8 July 2023 at the Beckton Triangle Retail Park, London.

I wish to outline my current position in reference to your PCN.

Keepers Liability and POFA 2012
As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...

"The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) A copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

AND

Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:

(2) The conditions are that —
(a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;
(b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and
(c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.
(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) “the relevant period” is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.[/I]

- You were required to send this information (which the notice to hirer states that you have already reeived from the hire company) to me (as Registered Keeper) within 21 days after receiving them from the lease/hire company (VWFS).
- Therefore I should have received these documents no later than 11 August 2023 (asuming you issued the notie to the hirer the same day as hearing from VWFS).
- As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper or hirer liability. There is more than one driver of the vehicle which you sent the PCN regarding.

In Summary...
- I wish to confirm to you I am the keeper (but not the Registered Keeper) of the vehicle and the hirer.
- I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter .
- As UK Parking Control has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as keeper or hirer.
- In addition, the notice to hirer does not state the mandatory facts required under para 14 (5) (b) and para 14 (5) (c) and incorrectly refers to a 28 day period instead
- The period of parking is not stated and there should have been a necessary grace period for the driver to review and understand the signs which are not clear in the photo supplied in the top right of the notice to hirer
- Since I was not supplied with the notice to keeper by UK Parking Control within the stipulated time (and the other required documents), I do not currently have a view on whether they complied with the relevant legislation and whether the original notice to keeper is valid but reserve my position on this
- You will need to pursue this potential claim with the driver once you identify them (if any required conditions are met).

Please therefore can you cancel your charge, or I will happily wait for a POPA appeal code and if necessary have my day in court to challenge this PCN as the hirer of the vehicle.

Yours

Coupon-mad

The second half isn't recommended and the ancient county court case of Ibbotsen is unreported/unimportant. isn't a precedent and it's so old, it even pre-dated Beavis.

taffer87

Coupon-mad said:

The second half isn't recommended and the ancient county court case of Ibbotsen is unreported/unimportant. isn't a precedent and it's so old, it even pre-dated Beavis.

Thanks I have edited now and cut the 2nd part - it was in one of the linked template in the Newbies forum

taffer87

Submitted this appeal today .. lets see how they respond - their online page said they will reply within 35 days

Dear UK Parking Control

Relationship to Vehicle stated as Registered Keeper in online form as there is no option for Hirer in the drop down menu

RE: PCN No. 

I would like you to know I (as the hirer of the vehicle) am not ignoring your letter suggesting my liability for a charge related to a parking infraction that you allege took place on 8 July 2023 at the Beckton Triangle Retail Park, London.

I wish to outline my position in reference to your PCN.

Keepers Liability and POFA 2012

As stated in paragraph 13(2) of POFA 2012...

"The creditor may not exercise the right under paragraph 4 to recover from the keeper any unpaid parking charges specified in the notice to keeper if, within the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which that notice was given, the creditor is given—

(a) A statement signed by or on behalf of the vehicle-hire firm to the effect that at the material time the vehicle was hired to a named person under a hire agreement;

(b) A copy of the hire agreement; and

(c) A copy of a statement of liability signed by the hirer under that hire agreement.

AND

Paragraph 14(2) and (3) of POFA 2012:

(2) The conditions are that —

(a) The creditor has within the relevant period given the hirer a notice in accordance with sub-paragraph (5) (a “notice to hirer”), together with a copy of the documents mentioned in paragraph 13(2) and the notice to keeper;

(b) A period of 21 days beginning with the day on which the notice to hirer was given has elapsed; and

(c) The vehicle was not a stolen vehicle at the beginning of the period of parking to which the unpaid parking charges relate.

(3) In sub-paragraph (2)(a) “the relevant period” is the period of 21 days beginning with the day after that on which the documents required by paragraph 13(2) are given to the creditor.”

You were legally required by POFA to send this information (which the notice to hirer you issued states that you have already received) to me (as hirer) within 21 days therefore, I should have received these documents no later than 13 August 2023 at the latest but did not receive them at all.

As this has not happened, you cannot use POFA to assume keeper or hirer liability. There are more than two regular drivers of the vehicle which you sent the PCN regarding.

In Summary:

- I wish to confirm to you I am the hirer of the vehicle

- I am not obliged to disclose the identity of the driver and this does not affect my liability in this matter but can confirm that there are 3 possible drivers who have use the car and are insured on the car.

- As UK Parking Control has not complied with paragraphs 13 (2) and 14 (2) of POFA 2012, you cannot rely on the provisions of the Act and hold me liable as hirer.

- In addition, the notice to hirer does not state the mandatory facts required under para 14 (5) (b) and para 14 (5) (c) and also incorrectly refers to a 28 day period instead

- The period of parking is not stated and there should have been a necessary grace period for the driver to review and understand the signs which are not clear in the photo supplied in the top right of the notice to hirer

- Since I, as hirer, was not supplied with the notice to keeper, and the other mandatory documents required by legislation by UK Parking Control within the stipulated time, I do not have a view on whether they complied with the relevant legislation and whether the original notice to keeper or those other documents are valid but in any case the matter should now be closed given POFA has not been complied with by UKPC.

- You will need to pursue this potential claim with the driver once you identify them (if any required contractual conditions are met).

Please therefore can you cancel your charge, or I will happily wait for a POPLA appeal code and if necessary, have my day in court to challenge this PCN as the hirer of the vehicle.

 

Yours Sincerely

B789

That's a lot of effort for a predicted rejection from the intellectually malnourished UKPC. You would have been better off and had more fun just sending them the following:

Dear UKPC,

Your NtH has failed PoFA. Either cancel it now or send me the POPLA code where you will lose.

taffer87

B789 said:

That's a lot of effort for a predicted rejection from the intellectually malnourished UKPC. You would have been better off and had more fun just sending them the following:

Dear UKPC,

Your NtH has failed PoFA. Either cancel it now or send me the POPLA code where you will lose.

haha just edited one the existing templates here from another case so not much effort

taffer87

no response form UK PCN yet but they did send a reminder dated 5 August which i received 2 weeks later.. which claims they left a windscreen PCN for some reason (probably mistake as no windscreen ticket was left) and also says need to pay the full £100 (ex.discount amount) withing 28 days of "this" notice which is strange as thought they should have said notice to hirer date

Coupon-mad

taffer87 said:

B789 said:

That's a lot of effort for a predicted rejection from the intellectually malnourished UKPC. You would have been better off and had more fun just sending them the following:

Dear UKPC,

Your NtH has failed PoFA. Either cancel it now or send me the POPLA code where you will lose.

haha just edited one the existing templates here from another case so not much effort

That's not one from any current thread. I hope you didn't submit that.

For some reason you used the useless one in the MSE article about 'fighting parking tickets' even though we advised you use what is in the NEWBIES thread on the forum plus point out it is non-POFA.