Sofology Cancellation

tightauldgit

turnitround said:

Measuring the space is one thing, getting a large sofa round a corner is another. We once lived in a three floor town house (never again) and getting any item of furniture up the stairs was awkward but doable until you hit the bend at the top of the stairs then impossible without scraping/gouging the walls which I'm sure the delivery guys don't want to be responsible for.

Giving measurements may be ok instore with sales staff but they are not the ones trying to maneuver heavy items upstairs and round tricky corners.
It always surprises me in these situations that the customers don't think they hold any responsibility for the cost of these failed deliveries.  Why should the stores/delivery people lose out.
I remember my first husband doing the job about ten years ago and the number of times he would be unable to deliver despite the customer ranting that they had 'got the last one in'.  He would be set up to make a few deliveries during the day and if a 'too large' item was one of the first deliveries scheduled and had to be taken back he would have to work round it all day taking the other deliveries off the vehicle which sometimes meant unloading and reloading the same item several times. He was paid per delivery so all the wasted time cost him dearly.

Well that bit is easy to answer. If you are selling me something and I tell you my dimensions and you tell me it will fit then its YOUR responsibility when it doesn't. You can't say one thing to make the sale and then something else when it comes time to deliver. And you can't really expect a consumer who buys 1 sofa a decade to know whether or not your specific product will fit in their specific space unless you can specify to them exactly what you need. 

tightauldgit

SofaSurfer008 said:

I'm currently talking to them but they appear to be standing behind their T's & C's.

The online clause is in there that allows me to reject within 14 days of delivery.  Distance selling regs etc.

They haven't fulfilled the contract to deliver you a sofa. You aren't returning it to them, or changing your mind, or cancelling the order - presumably you still want the sofa. They are unable to fulfil the contract so should refund you in full. 

Their terms can say whatever they like but I don't think any court would uphold that a 40% fee for restocking an item after a failed deliver is reasonable in any case but that's not really here nor there because this isn't a cancellation. 

The crux of the matter is that if they told you they could deliver it then that forms part of the contract between you guys. Are they denying they told you that? I'd go back to the shop and speak to the same salesperson/store manager and see what they say. 

turnitround

tightauldgit said:

turnitround said:

Measuring the space is one thing, getting a large sofa round a corner is another. We once lived in a three floor town house (never again) and getting any item of furniture up the stairs was awkward but doable until you hit the bend at the top of the stairs then impossible without scraping/gouging the walls which I'm sure the delivery guys don't want to be responsible for.

Giving measurements may be ok instore with sales staff but they are not the ones trying to maneuver heavy items upstairs and round tricky corners.
It always surprises me in these situations that the customers don't think they hold any responsibility for the cost of these failed deliveries.  Why should the stores/delivery people lose out.
I remember my first husband doing the job about ten years ago and the number of times he would be unable to deliver despite the customer ranting that they had 'got the last one in'.  He would be set up to make a few deliveries during the day and if a 'too large' item was one of the first deliveries scheduled and had to be taken back he would have to work round it all day taking the other deliveries off the vehicle which sometimes meant unloading and reloading the same item several times. He was paid per delivery so all the wasted time cost him dearly.

Well that bit is easy to answer. If you are selling me something and I tell you my dimensions and you tell me it will fit then its YOUR responsibility when it doesn't. You can't say one thing to make the sale and then something else when it comes time to deliver. And you can't really expect a consumer who buys 1 sofa a decade to know whether or not your specific product will fit in their specific space unless you can specify to them exactly what you need. 

Well we will have to disagree on that.  
I measure my doorways and  they are 36 inches wide,  the chair I want to buy is 34 inches wide.

 It will fit through if no turns or angles. However, if I have to go through one door and then turn at right angle in a tight space it will not go through unless I take a chunk out of the wallpaper.  How are the shop staff supposed to see the internal plan of my house.

If I went to buy a sofa then presumably I would look at it from every angle, measure and suss out where it would have to be delivered to and make a decision for which I would be responsible. I would not expect the salesperson to have any information other than the specific dimensions of the product I was interested in.

Alderbank

I don't expect the salesperson to know whether it will fit into my house, just as I don't expect them to know the details of consumer law, chargebacks, s75, etc. But I am buying from a trader who I do expect to know or find out about these things.

Years ago when I had a vacation job doing deliveries for Debenhams it was quite common for the delivery manager to visit a customer's house to size up an awkward delivery. Back in those pre-internet days no-one lived more than a couple of miles from the shop.
However in consumer law if you ask specific questions about a product the trader's answers become a binding contract term.
Also when you state your conditions, such as 'you must get it up my spiral staircase' they can refuse to accept on those terms.
That didn't happen here. Not fit for purpose.

The OP says the old sofa could be taken apart and reassembled in situ. That might be something to look for in a replacement.

tightauldgit

turnitround said:

Well we will have to disagree on that.  
I measure my doorways and  they are 36 inches wide,  the chair I want to buy is 34 inches wide.

 It will fit through if no turns or angles. However, if I have to go through one door and then turn at right angle in a tight space it will not go through unless I take a chunk out of the wallpaper.  How are the shop staff supposed to see the internal plan of my house.

If I went to buy a sofa then presumably I would look at it from every angle, measure and suss out where it would have to be delivered to and make a decision for which I would be responsible. I would not expect the salesperson to have any information other than the specific dimensions of the product I was interested in.

Well it's quite simple really - if you are a salesperson and you don't know if it will fit then you say 'i don't know if it will fit. it's up to you to determine that' if you decide to say 'yes it will fit. Sign here' to get the sale then it's YOUR responsibility if and when it doesn't.

HillStreetBlues

SofaSurfer008 said:

We didn't do any measurements the first time as our old sofa, bought about 15 years ago was huge and we had no problem getting that into the room.

SofaSurfer008 said:

The old sofa could be broken down into smaller pieces and reassembled in situ.

Maybe that's where the trouble is?

turnitround

tightauldgit said:

turnitround said:

Well we will have to disagree on that.  
I measure my doorways and  they are 36 inches wide,  the chair I want to buy is 34 inches wide.

 It will fit through if no turns or angles. However, if I have to go through one door and then turn at right angle in a tight space it will not go through unless I take a chunk out of the wallpaper.  How are the shop staff supposed to see the internal plan of my house.

If I went to buy a sofa then presumably I would look at it from every angle, measure and suss out where it would have to be delivered to and make a decision for which I would be responsible. I would not expect the salesperson to have any information other than the specific dimensions of the product I was interested in.

Well it's quite simple really - if you are a salesperson and you don't know if it will fit then you say 'i don't know if it will fit. it's up to you to determine that' if you decide to say 'yes it will fit. Sign here' to get the sale then it's YOUR responsibility if and when it doesn't.

But the salesperson can only go off what the customer tells them and if the customer just has basic measurements and does not take into consideration angles and corners  or has made a mistake then that is what the salesperson has to accept. 

Alderbank

turnitround said:

tightauldgit said:

turnitround said:

Well we will have to disagree on that.  
I measure my doorways and  they are 36 inches wide,  the chair I want to buy is 34 inches wide.

 It will fit through if no turns or angles. However, if I have to go through one door and then turn at right angle in a tight space it will not go through unless I take a chunk out of the wallpaper.  How are the shop staff supposed to see the internal plan of my house.

If I went to buy a sofa then presumably I would look at it from every angle, measure and suss out where it would have to be delivered to and make a decision for which I would be responsible. I would not expect the salesperson to have any information other than the specific dimensions of the product I was interested in.

Well it's quite simple really - if you are a salesperson and you don't know if it will fit then you say 'i don't know if it will fit. it's up to you to determine that' if you decide to say 'yes it will fit. Sign here' to get the sale then it's YOUR responsibility if and when it doesn't.

But the salesperson can only go off what the customer tells them and if the customer just has basic measurements and does not take into consideration angles and corners  or has made a mistake then that is what the salesperson has to accept. 

Nothing in law to say the trader is forced to accept any demands of the would-be purchaser.
You've made that up.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

SofaSurfer008 said:

I'm currently talking to them but they appear to be standing behind their T's & C's.

The online clause is in there that allows me to reject within 14 days of delivery.  Distance selling regs etc.

They haven't fulfilled the contract to deliver you a sofa. You aren't returning it to them, or changing your mind, or cancelling the order - presumably you still want the sofa. They are unable to fulfil the contract so should refund you in full. 

Delivery is classed as " voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another" which means possession or control over the goods passes from one (the trader) to the other (the consumer). 

Now it does say "voluntary" but I'm not sure what happens if they deliver the sofa to the OP at say at their front door, rather than inside their house, and then walk away as in that instance delivery (and physical possession for passing of risk) would likely be classed to have occurred.

Equally I'm not sure exactly what happens when the consumer simply refuses to accept delivery (perhaps by not answering the door), the contract may be treated at an end if delivery doesn't occur but whether the refusal to accept it plays any part I don't know. 

Perhaps one for @unholyangel if she is passing  

soolin

Last year I bought a sofa from a large independent store. My house is 100 years old and has large doorways and a very large hall, but a nasty sharp turn from the hall into the back room where the sofa needed to go. The only alternative is to go in through the garage which has a slightly narrow back door, so not  doable. 

I took photos and measurements into the store but it was difficult to explain to the salesperson about the exact nature of the turn and clearance. They said that if I went ahead with the sofa and had Parker Knoll make it for me I would not be able to get a refund if it couldn’t get into the house. However they had a brilliant solution, they had an identical sofa in the show room, they arranged to split that in half along the build joint (it is meant to do that) and bring one half to my house and see if it would fit. The following week they turned up, it took ages to negotiate the bend without damaging anything but they proved it would fit. They wrote in the contract that their delivery people had done a test run so the sale was based on them conforming it had fit, and also that PK were to leave it split at build joint. 

I then went ahead paid the deposit and waited 4 months for it to arrive. 

My old sofa was from a large chain and could be disassembled into smaller pieces and was easier to manoeuvre.