Sofology Cancellation

SofaSurfer008

pinkshoes said:

turnitround said:

Alderbank said:

Sofology's terms & conditions include:
 

25. Liability
You acknowledge and agree that we will have no liability for any incorrect information provided by you, for example incorrect measurements.

That seems fair and reasonable. It's not an Unfair Contract Term.

Exactly. So therefore unless the OP has proof they gave 'exact' measurements and info the store are not liable.

A court does not need PROOF. They go on beyond reasonable doubt and a balance of probabilities. 

If it went to court, on the "balance of probabilities", then given the OP has already had one failed sofa delivery due to the sofa being too big to fit through the doorways, then I think it would be a fair assumption that the OP did measure correctly and give Sofology the correct dimensions, and Sofology being the experts should have been table to establish whether the sofa would fit or not based on the dimensions given.

If they were not sure, they should have said "I'm not sure" then the OP would have to work it out for themselves. 

It is highly unlikely that the OP  would have given the wrong dimensions given they needed a sofa that fitted through the door and had already had one failed attempt, so would likely win in court. 

Exactly this. 

saajan_12

turnitround said:

tightauldgit said:

turnitround said:

Measuring the space is one thing, getting a large sofa round a corner is another. We once lived in a three floor town house (never again) and getting any item of furniture up the stairs was awkward but doable until you hit the bend at the top of the stairs then impossible without scraping/gouging the walls which I'm sure the delivery guys don't want to be responsible for.

Giving measurements may be ok instore with sales staff but they are not the ones trying to maneuver heavy items upstairs and round tricky corners.
It always surprises me in these situations that the customers don't think they hold any responsibility for the cost of these failed deliveries.  Why should the stores/delivery people lose out.
I remember my first husband doing the job about ten years ago and the number of times he would be unable to deliver despite the customer ranting that they had 'got the last one in'.  He would be set up to make a few deliveries during the day and if a 'too large' item was one of the first deliveries scheduled and had to be taken back he would have to work round it all day taking the other deliveries off the vehicle which sometimes meant unloading and reloading the same item several times. He was paid per delivery so all the wasted time cost him dearly.

Well that bit is easy to answer. If you are selling me something and I tell you my dimensions and you tell me it will fit then its YOUR responsibility when it doesn't. You can't say one thing to make the sale and then something else when it comes time to deliver. And you can't really expect a consumer who buys 1 sofa a decade to know whether or not your specific product will fit in their specific space unless you can specify to them exactly what you need. 

Well we will have to disagree on that.  
I measure my doorways and  they are 36 inches wide,  the chair I want to buy is 34 inches wide.

 It will fit through if no turns or angles. However, if I have to go through one door and then turn at right angle in a tight space it will not go through unless I take a chunk out of the wallpaper.  How are the shop staff supposed to see the internal plan of my house.

If I went to buy a sofa then presumably I would look at it from every angle, measure and suss out where it would have to be delivered to and make a decision for which I would be responsible. I would not expect the salesperson to have any information other than the specific dimensions of the product I was interested in.

The customer may indeed provide the internal plan of their house - not too hard to draw a diagram and provide angles. 

You might choose to assess yourself, though a trader may not let you disassemble a show piece enough to establish the dimensions of the parts, or it may be made on order. Also the trader may have more expertise in manouvering bulky items. There's nothing wrong with asking for an assurance - the trader is free to decline because they don't have enough information or just don't want to take the risk. However they might ask enough questions and accept (conditional on the answers being correct) to make the sale, in which case they should be responsible for that assurance. 

tightauldgit

turnitround said:

tightauldgit said:

turnitround said:

Well we will have to disagree on that.  
I measure my doorways and  they are 36 inches wide,  the chair I want to buy is 34 inches wide.

 It will fit through if no turns or angles. However, if I have to go through one door and then turn at right angle in a tight space it will not go through unless I take a chunk out of the wallpaper.  How are the shop staff supposed to see the internal plan of my house.

If I went to buy a sofa then presumably I would look at it from every angle, measure and suss out where it would have to be delivered to and make a decision for which I would be responsible. I would not expect the salesperson to have any information other than the specific dimensions of the product I was interested in.

Well it's quite simple really - if you are a salesperson and you don't know if it will fit then you say 'i don't know if it will fit. it's up to you to determine that' if you decide to say 'yes it will fit. Sign here' to get the sale then it's YOUR responsibility if and when it doesn't.

But the salesperson can only go off what the customer tells them and if the customer just has basic measurements and does not take into consideration angles and corners  or has made a mistake then that is what the salesperson has to accept. 

Its up to the salesperson to ask the right questions before they say 'yes, it can be delivered' again they are perfectly free to say 'i cant promise' 'i don't know' or 'it's at your risk' but if they accept the risk and sell the item then it's their responsibility. 

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

SofaSurfer008 said:

I'm currently talking to them but they appear to be standing behind their T's & C's.

The online clause is in there that allows me to reject within 14 days of delivery.  Distance selling regs etc.

They haven't fulfilled the contract to deliver you a sofa. You aren't returning it to them, or changing your mind, or cancelling the order - presumably you still want the sofa. They are unable to fulfil the contract so should refund you in full. 

Delivery is classed as " voluntary transfer of possession from one person to another" which means possession or control over the goods passes from one (the trader) to the other (the consumer). 

Now it does say "voluntary" but I'm not sure what happens if they deliver the sofa to the OP at say at their front door, rather than inside their house, and then walk away as in that instance delivery (and physical possession for passing of risk) would likely be classed to have occurred.

Equally I'm not sure exactly what happens when the consumer simply refuses to accept delivery (perhaps by not answering the door), the contract may be treated at an end if delivery doesn't occur but whether the refusal to accept it plays any part I don't know. 

Perhaps one for @unholyangel if she is passing  

Voluntary would suggest with the consent of both parties. I doubt anyone can claim physical possession of a good has occurred by dumping it in someone's front garden but I'm open to being educated of where a court has ruled as such. On the face of it a standard delivery of a sofa is to put it in your living room and that's the expectation any customer would have when paying for it. 

I doubt that not being home ends the contract on anything. it would revert to the terms of the contract. And beyond that the specifics of law. Unless the contract was specified to complete on a certain date then the contract would still be in force. The only real question would be who has to bear the cost of the failed delivery.  

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

I doubt that not being home ends the contract on anything. it would revert to the terms of the contract. And beyond that the specifics of law. Unless the contract was specified to complete on a certain date then the contract would still be in force. The only real question would be who has to bear the cost of the failed delivery.  

Delivery of Goods is covered under the CRA

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/28

The trader must deliver within either 30 days or an agreed time.

If they fail and delivery within the agreed period is essential (either by the circumstances, say flowers to a wedding, or the consumer told the trader it was essential), the trader doesn't get a second chance to deliver and the consumer may treat the contract at and end for a full refund.

If delivery within the agreed period was not essential then the consumer may specific another timeframe that is reasonable, if that also fails then again the consumer may treat the contract at an end for a full refund.. 

Guidance notes are here 

https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/notes/division/3/1/3/6/1

tightauldgit said:

Voluntary would suggest with the consent of both parties. I doubt anyone can claim physical possession of a good has occurred by dumping it in someone's front garden but I'm open to being educated of where a court has ruled as such. On the face of it a standard delivery of a sofa is to put it in your living room and that's the expectation any customer would have when paying for it.   

If you buy a 25 kilo bag of bird seed from your local store and the owner agrees to deliver it to your home, standard practice would be to knock on the door and say here's your bird seed. 

He may be a nice chap and agree to carry round the back and pop it in the shed for you but just because he doesn't do this it doesn't mean he hasn't delivered the goods.

A sofa is the same, big stores will deliver to your living room, they know customers are less likely to buy if they have to figure out how to get a sofa in their home by themselves but these stores aren't the only place to sell sofas. As an example you could buy one from a charity shop who will deliver to your door but not inside the home (perhaps for insurance reasons, perhaps they don't want to deal with claims of damaged walls for sofa legs scratching doors or walls). 

This is an example of a furniture company 

https://www.chilternoakfurniture.co.uk/pages/delivery-information

who deliver to your "your hallway or main entrance" and charge £14.99 for delivery to a room of your choice. If you pick the hallway option and can't get the item in your living room, bedroom, or whatever you can't turnaround and say delivery hasn't occurred because the item was left by the main entrance. 

Your expectation of getting a sofa delivered to the living room is your own  

With regards to it being left by the front door we are looking at what possession and control mean in a legal sense, as per the passing of risk debate, I doubt there will be an answer on here. 

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

If you buy a 25 kilo bag of bird seed from your local store and the owner agrees to deliver it to your home, standard practice would be to knock on the door and say here's your bird seed. 

He may be a nice chap and agree to carry round the back and pop it in the shed for you but just because he doesn't do this it doesn't mean he hasn't delivered the goods.

A sofa is the same, big stores will deliver to your living room, they know customers are less likely to buy if they have to figure out how to get a sofa in their home by themselves but these stores aren't the only place to sell sofas. As an example you could buy one from a charity shop who will deliver to your door but not inside the home (perhaps for insurance reasons, perhaps they don't want to deal with claims of damaged walls for sofa legs scratching doors or walls). 

This is an example of a furniture company 

https://www.chilternoakfurniture.co.uk/pages/delivery-information

who deliver to your "your hallway or main entrance" and charge £14.99 for delivery to a room of your choice. If you pick the hallway option and can't get the item in your living room, bedroom, or whatever you can't turnaround and say delivery hasn't occurred because the item was left by the main entrance. 

Your expectation of getting a sofa delivered to the living room is your own  

With regards to it being left by the front door we are looking at what possession and control mean in a legal sense, as per the passing of risk debate, I doubt there will be an answer on here. 

Did you just want a definition? 

(2) “Legal possession” which is a type of possession recognised and protected by the law. The elements normally associated with legal possession are an intention of possessing together with an amount of occupation or control of the entire subject matter such that it is capable and sufficient for practical purposes to exclude strangers from interfering.

As you can see it refers to 'intention of possessing' it's not simply enough to dump an item somewhere near the person or their property and insist that they now have possession of it. Of course the final arbiter will be the judge on the day. You can of course ACCEPT a good being dumped in your garden as delivery or specify it in the contract that delivery means dumped in your garden. That doesn't mean everything that someone dumps in your garden has been delivered and now belongs to you.

It always amuses me how some people think the law is just a giant word game and it's about finding the right magic words to say to win the argument - it really isn't. A judge will look at the situation and exercise their judgement on what's reasonable.

And in this case its a completely irrelevant sideline because they didn't dump it in the garden. They attempted to deliver it as is normal and failed/refused to.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

Did you just want a definition? 

(2) “Legal possession” which is a type of possession recognised and protected by the law. The elements normally associated with legal possession are an intention of possessing together with an amount of occupation or control of the entire subject matter such that it is capable and sufficient for practical purposes to exclude strangers from interfering.

As you can see it refers to 'intention of possessing' it's not simply enough to dump an item somewhere near the person or their property and insist that they now have possession of it. Of course the final arbiter will be the judge on the day. You can of course ACCEPT a good being dumped in your garden as delivery or specify it in the contract that delivery means dumped in your garden. That doesn't mean everything that someone dumps in your garden has been delivered and now belongs to you.

It always amuses me how some people think the law is just a giant word game and it's about finding the right magic words to say to win the argument - it really isn't. A judge will look at the situation and exercise their judgement on what's reasonable.

And in this case its a completely irrelevant sideline because they didn't dump it in the garden. They attempted to deliver it as is normal and failed/refused to.

Dumped in the garden was your term not mine, delivered to the entrance of the property in the consumer's presence isn't the same as chucking it in the garden.

As I've said I don't know the answers here but I don't think anyone else does either, pasting half the information from the first result on Google doesn't really convivence me you have an understanding of what the CRA is referring to in terms of possession and control, rather that you are looking for those magic words  

I would be more than happy to say the consumer can refuse delivery twice and then treat the contract at an end because the trader failed to deliver as per the CRA but without a full understanding of the terms surrounding delivery I'm not comfortable stating such, and would no doubt be picked to pieces for doing so. 

SofaSurfer008

I think things have gone a little of topic here.

What I was really looking for was previous experience with Sofology or a similar company in similar circumstances.

I'm happy to engage in dialogue with Sofology on this but at the moment they are just pushing the standard  T's & C's.

What grates the most is if I had made zero attempt at engaging with the Store and simply ordered online or via the phone, there would be no issue. I would have been able to reject the goods for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, irrespective of whether it would fit.

I feel like I'm been penalised for trying to mitigate a potential issue. 

Is it any wonder the high streets are losing out to online retailers?

As it is now I'm hoping common sense prevails.

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

Did you just want a definition? 

(2) “Legal possession” which is a type of possession recognised and protected by the law. The elements normally associated with legal possession are an intention of possessing together with an amount of occupation or control of the entire subject matter such that it is capable and sufficient for practical purposes to exclude strangers from interfering.

As you can see it refers to 'intention of possessing' it's not simply enough to dump an item somewhere near the person or their property and insist that they now have possession of it. Of course the final arbiter will be the judge on the day. You can of course ACCEPT a good being dumped in your garden as delivery or specify it in the contract that delivery means dumped in your garden. That doesn't mean everything that someone dumps in your garden has been delivered and now belongs to you.

It always amuses me how some people think the law is just a giant word game and it's about finding the right magic words to say to win the argument - it really isn't. A judge will look at the situation and exercise their judgement on what's reasonable.

And in this case its a completely irrelevant sideline because they didn't dump it in the garden. They attempted to deliver it as is normal and failed/refused to.

Dumped in the garden was your term not mine, delivered to the entrance of the property in the consumer's presence isn't the same as chucking it in the garden.

As I've said I don't know the answers here but I don't think anyone else does either, pasting half the information from the first result on Google doesn't really convivence me you have an understanding of what the CRA is referring to in terms of possession and control, rather that you are looking for those magic words  

I would be more than happy to say the consumer can refuse delivery twice and then treat the contract at an end because the trader failed to deliver as per the CRA but without a full understanding of the terms surrounding delivery I'm not comfortable stating such, and would no doubt be picked to pieces for doing so. 

You asked for a definition of what possession and control mean in legal terms and were given it from a reputable source. If that's not going to convince you of what the definition is then I don't really know what you were asking for other than just being argumentative.

It's rather begging the question of whether an item was delivered to describe it as being 'delivered to the entrance' no? Simply leaving an item on your property does not transfer possession to you - if it did that would create all sorts of issues.   

Going by your suggestion of what delivered might mean there's no way for a customer to refuse delivery twice to do as you suggest - the supplier just brings the item to the door, leaves it there and it's 'delivered to the entrance of the property in the customers presence'.

It would certainly help if the CRA was updated to better define some of the terms around delivery and returns to be more specific but in the absence of that we have to go by the general understanding of what words mean with the caveat that a judge on the day might just decide to do something unusual.  

jon81uk

SofaSurfer008 said:

I think things have gone a little of topic here.

What I was really looking for was previous experience with Sofology or a similar company in similar circumstances.

I'm happy to engage in dialogue with Sofology on this but at the moment they are just pushing the standard  T's & C's.

What grates the most is if I had made zero attempt at engaging with the Store and simply ordered online or via the phone, there would be no issue. I would have been able to reject the goods for ANY REASON WHATSOEVER, irrespective of whether it would fit.

I feel like I'm been penalised for trying to mitigate a potential issue. 

Is it any wonder the high streets are losing out to online retailers?

As it is now I'm hoping common sense prevails.

In store you have the opportunity to inspect the goods and see if they meet your needs, thats why the law gives more rights to those ordering online as you are unable to check the goods in person.

I think in this case the issue is your old sofa dismantled into smaller sections, the new one doesn't. Did you discuss this with the sales person and have any record of them being aware of your delivery need?

When I ordered in store from Sofology we talked about the sofa needing to fit round a corner and then ordered the one which can split into two parts and it fit fine. If we had ordered the one that didn't split there is no way it could have been manoeuvred into our lounge.