Spray Foam Insulation

user1977

matthew91822 said:

Sgt_P_Lodd said:

 
In your position, I guess you could not mention the spray foam to the lender, and go ahead. But you might be buying a property with hidden rotten roof timbers.

I spoke to my solicitor and whilst they didn't recommend anything they did mention that it may invalidate my buildings insurance as the lender will not lend based on spray foam being present. 

There may well be other reasons for running away, but the insurance point sounds like a red herring - you only need to declare things which insurers ask you about, and I've never encountered one asking about insulation.

But bear in mind that a standard buildings insurance policy isn't in any event going to help you sort out any repairs if the insulation causes a problem.

eddddy

matthew91822 said:

I passed the info to my broker who let the lender know and the lender came back that they have 'suspended the mortgage offer' until the foam has been removed and the roof structure can be inspected.

Time to tell the vendor...

I guess that the follow on issue will be...

If the spray foam insulation is removed, then there's probably no other insulation in the loft.

I guess the quick and easy option would be to lay standard mineral wool insulation. But if the floor in the loft is boarded, you'll have to take the boards up first. And if you want to re-board afterwards - you might need 'stilts' or some other type of flooring system.

And that would convert it from a warm loft to a cold loft. That might save on heating bills, but you might want to insulate any water tanks and pipes. And stuff stored in the loft might degrade slightly more quickly.

matthew91822

I ended up pulling out.

The solicitor managed to dig out the paperwork for the install of the spray foam. Done in 2013 by a company which no longer exists, their before photos and documentation suggest they removed all of the felting from under the tiles before they put on the foam. Damage to many tiles would be inevitable on removal.

House now re listed as cash buyers only. I think someone will snap it up as every other property in the area has a dormer wheras this one doesnt, so they can probaby afford not to care about damage.

GMNN

Well - I find myself in a similar situation and starting to really worry about our purchase after spending the last hour reading about spray foam insulation - which I had never heard about before today!

We are in the process of buying a new build house, and lender's (Halifax) valuation report just came back with "Spray foam insulation is outside of lending criteria - property is not acceptable to the lender". Just spoke with our mortgage broker who was surprised to hear spray foam insulation present on new build property (which does have 2 bedrooms located "within" the roof, if you see what I mean, with dormers etc... so it's not like the roof timbers are visible - I think you can only see the foam in the eaves space at the bottom on the side walls where there is an access hatch). Broker had a conversation with the lender's underwriter who said they would be able to review the decision if we can provide documents showing state of roof before foam was applied, that work was done correctly, certified by external body, and under some kind of warranty...

Otherwise, broker said the most common course of action is to get the foam removed - which understandably makes sense if spray foam was retrofitted some years ago to existing property. Here the house is still being built (due to be finished in ~April) so would be weird to ask the builders to remove the foam they just installed a few months ago.. 

Based on my research, I have asked the estate agents to chase the builders for the following documents:

- pre-work suitability report setting out the condition of the roof and timbers before the foam was sprayed, usually including photos
- condensation risk assessment

- independent test certificate such as BBA or Kiwa certification detailing the type of foam and how it was sprayed
- installation company details and its credentials
- installation guarantee/warranty

Anything else you think I should be asking for? It sounds like this really is a big issue for mortgage lenders, so if we can't convince Halifax, not sure how/why another lender would take a different approach.

This discovery has really shaken us, and we are also now starting to worry about resale value and future mortgageability when we come to sell in say 5-10 years from now. Will the issue still be as problematic as it is today? Who knows - some sources claim that with improved installation standards then lenders will loosen their restrictions..

Anyone else have been through this, especially related to a new build property purchase?

eddddy

GMNN said:

Based on my research, I have asked the estate agents to chase the builders for the following documents:

- pre-work suitability report setting out the condition of the roof and timbers before the foam was sprayed, usually including photos
- condensation risk assessment

- independent test certificate such as BBA or Kiwa certification detailing the type of foam and how it was sprayed
- installation company details and its credentials
- installation guarantee/warranty

I'm not sure I would have taken that approach, certainly not initially. Are you 100% sure that you're asking the right questions? If you're not, it could cause confusion and delays.

The house builder should be the expert on this, not you. (If the house builder isn't an expert, it's probably a bit risky to buy from them.) So I think I would have asked a much more open question to the builder to start with like...

"Halifax's valuer has advised Halifax that the house is not mortgageable because of the spray foam insulation. I assume you disagree. I attach their comments. Please provide me with information that Halifax and their valuer would require to assess the house as mortgageable."

GMNN said:

This discovery has really shaken us, and we are also now starting to worry about resale value and future mortgageability when we come to sell in say 5-10 years from now. Will the issue still be as problematic as it is today? Who knows - some sources claim that with improved installation standards then lenders will loosen their restrictions..

If installation standards improve in the future, that might help the mortgageability of properties that have spray foam applied in the future under the new standards.

But I can't see how it would help the mortgageability of properties with spray foam installed under current standards.

FreeBear

GMNN said: We are in the process of buying a new build house, and lender's (Halifax) valuation report just came back with "Spray foam insulation is outside of lending criteria - property is not acceptable to the lender". Just spoke with our mortgage broker who was surprised to hear spray foam insulation present on new build property (which does have 2 bedrooms located "within" the roof, if you see what I mean, with dormers etc... so it's not like the roof timbers are visible - I think you can only see the foam in the eaves space at the bottom on the side walls where there is an access hatch).

Are you sure it is spray foam and not PIR/PUR insulation boards ?

The two look very similar, but the difference is the PIR/PUR boards (usually) have an aluminium foil facing. You need to ask the builders exactly what the material is. If it is indeed spray foam, you need assurances that a suitable air gap exists between the tiles and the foam. In a building properly designed and constructed with spray foam in mind, it would be a perfectly acceptable material. But you need details of construction and assurances from the builder that it has been used properly. Without it, I can understand why the mortgage provider would be reluctant to lend, and you may well face problems when selling in the future.

Got any photos inside this inspection hatch ?

GMNN

FreeBear said:

Got any photos inside this inspection hatch ?

No - I'll try to take some next time I visit the site..

I did manage to find the plans online on the local planning application website, and I drew in red below where they applied the spray foam - this is the view from the front of the house, so it essentially goes along the side of the house, with 2 bedrooms at the top with both of them having an access door/hatch, presumably to use the eaves space for extra storage...



The thing is - had they not provided that access hatch and just kept a plain solid wall, nobody would have ever known what's on the other side... Blissful ignorance and all - but certainly no issues with mortgageability and onward sale in the future...

Snakle535i

Let me way in with my 2 cents worth:

Spray Foam insulation has been used in the Nordic region for the past 25 years (Nordic winters are far harsher than UK winters), it is a not a new form of insulation, a lot of US and European building programs use it to insulate their homes. It is Eco friendly and reduces bills, I used to pay circa £300pm during Winter to heat my house I now pay circa £75pm and am now in Energy Credit. 

As usual it is the UK's bureucrat mentality that is getting in the way. I recently needed to do equity release on my house due to my wife passing away. I was told in no uncertain terms this would not be possible due to my Foam Insulation. The foam I have installed has a 25 year guarantee has reduced the condensation in the beams and made my roof safer by prolonging the life not to mention the reduced bills. That says to me that is obviously "greener" due to the reduced energy required.

So why install an outdated non eco friendly solution when there is a better way. Government need to stand up and tell the banks that they need to start offering main stream mortgages like any other house.

I have since found someone who will give me the money at a very competitive rate, so moral of the story Foam insulation is better in every way and there are companies that have woken up and will now give mortgages.

FreeBear

Snakle535i said:

Let me way in with my 2 cents worth:

Spray Foam insulation has been used in the Nordic region for the past 25 years (Nordic winters are far harsher than UK winters), it is a not a new form of insulation, a lot of US and European building programs use it to insulate their homes.

Spray foam insulation is great IF the property has been designed from the outset with it in mind. Sprayed willy-nilly on to the underside of a roof in an older property is not such a good idea - A gap of ~50mm is needed between the insulation and the roof covering (slate or tile), and you then need to include measures to control condensation. If the loft space is just storage as many are, you end up heating a wasted, unoccupied space. Better to insulate at the joist level and keep the bulk of the heat in the rooms below.

As for the stuff being "eco friendly" - You do realise that it is a petroleum derived product, is impossible to recycle, and gives off toxic fumes when burnt. Yes, over the lifetime of the product, it saves energy which helps to offset the not-so-eco credentials.

Olinda99

yes this is the crux of the matter - in the countries where spray foam is used the houses have been specifically designed to cater for this.

just spraying it around in any old attic is a disaster