My boss does not want me to have operation.

DullGreyGuy

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Universidad said:

DullGreyGuy said:

You have no statutory right for time off for medical procedures in the UK 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're over interpreting this bit of advice.

You're not legally entitled to attend medical appointments in work hours, but if you're not well enough to work you are entitled to sick leave (and may be entitled to sick pay).

After an operation, I believe the recovery period in which you are not fit for work would be covered under sickness absence, rather than considered an extended medical appointment.

As routine surgery it would ordinarily be done during normal working hours... ok we dont know what the OP does but it seems like they were asking their boss for leave to cover both the Op and the subsequent recovery. The Op itself would be a "medical appointment".

Have already acknowledged that if the OP is too sick to attend work pre-Op that they naturally can get a fit note but we are just over a week away from the planned date and the OP is still in work so would "require" a convenient deterioration in their condition or a GP willing to write false fit notes. 

I'm not sure that I follow this.

Is the OP asking for a sick note to cover before the operation (as you put it 'pre-op')?

I though the problem was post-op sick leave for recovery.

Once the OP has had the operation his condition will be a deterioration from what it is now - hopefully only temporarily.
I suspect most operations are the same.
I was perfectly fine (apart from the issue I had) until I had out-patient planned surgery which put me off my feet for a week in a cast and then 8 weeks in a boot using crutches.
I would have been perfectly well to go to work until the day before the surgery (had I not been retired) and the consultant who did the operation would have given me a sick note to cover me until my 8 week assessment proved I was fit to return to work.

Apologies if I've missed that the OP wants time off before the operation.

My assumption, which could be wrong, is the OP wants time off for the op itself which is what I meant by "pre-op" as presumably they wouldnt be still working as they go in for their anesthetic but have the whole day off

Pollycat

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Universidad said:

DullGreyGuy said:

You have no statutory right for time off for medical procedures in the UK 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're over interpreting this bit of advice.

You're not legally entitled to attend medical appointments in work hours, but if you're not well enough to work you are entitled to sick leave (and may be entitled to sick pay).

After an operation, I believe the recovery period in which you are not fit for work would be covered under sickness absence, rather than considered an extended medical appointment.

As routine surgery it would ordinarily be done during normal working hours... ok we dont know what the OP does but it seems like they were asking their boss for leave to cover both the Op and the subsequent recovery. The Op itself would be a "medical appointment".

Have already acknowledged that if the OP is too sick to attend work pre-Op that they naturally can get a fit note but we are just over a week away from the planned date and the OP is still in work so would "require" a convenient deterioration in their condition or a GP willing to write false fit notes. 

I'm not sure that I follow this.

Is the OP asking for a sick note to cover before the operation (as you put it 'pre-op')?

I though the problem was post-op sick leave for recovery.

Once the OP has had the operation his condition will be a deterioration from what it is now - hopefully only temporarily.
I suspect most operations are the same.
I was perfectly fine (apart from the issue I had) until I had out-patient planned surgery which put me off my feet for a week in a cast and then 8 weeks in a boot using crutches.
I would have been perfectly well to go to work until the day before the surgery (had I not been retired) and the consultant who did the operation would have given me a sick note to cover me until my 8 week assessment proved I was fit to return to work.

Apologies if I've missed that the OP wants time off before the operation.

My assumption, which could be wrong, is the OP wants time off for the op itself which is what I meant by "pre-op" as presumably they wouldnt be still working as they go in for their anesthetic but have the whole day off

I'm pretty sure that most people who are having an operation would expect to have the day of their operation off.
Plus any necessary time for recovery, supported by a sick note from the consultant.

I really don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

The only unreasonableness is - imho - the OP's boss's reaction to the proposed surgery.

Bobbobbobingalong

Remember, your employer has a duty towards you in relation to your health and safety at work. You have the makings of an argument from the little you've said that your condition was caused by the work you do and what is in no doubt is that if uncorrected, the hernia will stop you doing that work at some point in the future. Consider then, what your employer would do if you were permanently unable to work? Having the operation is the responsible thing to do and is on medical advice, you should have no fears about repercussions whatsoever, as you can see, your employer should consider what they can do to support you, well the glaringly obvious solution is the operation.

I'm with the other contributor looking to buy a ticket for the tribunal proceedings were it to get that far.

https://www.gov.uk/dismissal/reasons-you-can-be-dismissed#:~:text=You%20can%20be%20dismissed%20if,you%20sick%20and%20needs%20changing

DullGreyGuy

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Universidad said:

DullGreyGuy said:

You have no statutory right for time off for medical procedures in the UK 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're over interpreting this bit of advice.

You're not legally entitled to attend medical appointments in work hours, but if you're not well enough to work you are entitled to sick leave (and may be entitled to sick pay).

After an operation, I believe the recovery period in which you are not fit for work would be covered under sickness absence, rather than considered an extended medical appointment.

As routine surgery it would ordinarily be done during normal working hours... ok we dont know what the OP does but it seems like they were asking their boss for leave to cover both the Op and the subsequent recovery. The Op itself would be a "medical appointment".

Have already acknowledged that if the OP is too sick to attend work pre-Op that they naturally can get a fit note but we are just over a week away from the planned date and the OP is still in work so would "require" a convenient deterioration in their condition or a GP willing to write false fit notes. 

I'm not sure that I follow this.

Is the OP asking for a sick note to cover before the operation (as you put it 'pre-op')?

I though the problem was post-op sick leave for recovery.

Once the OP has had the operation his condition will be a deterioration from what it is now - hopefully only temporarily.
I suspect most operations are the same.
I was perfectly fine (apart from the issue I had) until I had out-patient planned surgery which put me off my feet for a week in a cast and then 8 weeks in a boot using crutches.
I would have been perfectly well to go to work until the day before the surgery (had I not been retired) and the consultant who did the operation would have given me a sick note to cover me until my 8 week assessment proved I was fit to return to work.

Apologies if I've missed that the OP wants time off before the operation.

My assumption, which could be wrong, is the OP wants time off for the op itself which is what I meant by "pre-op" as presumably they wouldnt be still working as they go in for their anesthetic but have the whole day off

I'm pretty sure that most people who are having an operation would expect to have the day of their operation off.
Plus any necessary time for recovery, supported by a sick note from the consultant.

I really don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

The only unreasonableness is - imho - the OP's boss's reaction to the proposed surgery.

Agree most people will expect to but as per the link from CAB there is actually no direct statutory requirement for their employers to allow it.  If you can possibly argue it indirectly via H&S legislation will depend on the job, illness etc.

Some have pointed out that there must be urgency in the OPs case given the relatively imminent option they've been given, personally I think that over interpreting the matter as they were also given the option of a notably later appointment and things that are urgent you are normally are just told it'll be done on the earliest date. I know when I had to see a consultant about my foot I was told to expect a circa 6 month wait but when they called they offered an appoint in a weeks time. That was simply because the previous call they'd taken was a cancellation so I got their slot, it didnt imply my case was critical. 

We can all moan about the fact there are bad bosses out there but ultimately they are acting within the law and advice really should focus on that rather than saying that a good boss wouldnt care etc.

Spendless

As a 21yo my then boss told me exactly the same thing about an op. In my case it was an extraction of 2 wisdom teeth in hospital under GA (they were growing sideways along my gum  causing me pain and couldn't be removed another way - at least not back then). I was on a waiting list, was rang with a cancellation and went and told my boss who said I couldn't go because we were too busy/short staffed. Very upset I rang the hospital back and refused the place. My older workmates seeing me in tears asked me what was wrong, when I told them they all said I should have told him I was going because my health came first, and it was his problem the staffing level to sort not mine.  but I'd been too young and naïve to know/realise this.

The hospital had asked if I was open to any other cancellation dates that came up so when one did a few months later, I then went to my boss and said I would be off due to an operation on x date. Straight away he said 'are you asking or telling me?' I said 'I'm telling you'. I had my op on this new date plus the recovery period that went with it and it was never fetched up by him again.  

Pollycat

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Universidad said:

DullGreyGuy said:

You have no statutory right for time off for medical procedures in the UK 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're over interpreting this bit of advice.

You're not legally entitled to attend medical appointments in work hours, but if you're not well enough to work you are entitled to sick leave (and may be entitled to sick pay).

After an operation, I believe the recovery period in which you are not fit for work would be covered under sickness absence, rather than considered an extended medical appointment.

As routine surgery it would ordinarily be done during normal working hours... ok we dont know what the OP does but it seems like they were asking their boss for leave to cover both the Op and the subsequent recovery. The Op itself would be a "medical appointment".

Have already acknowledged that if the OP is too sick to attend work pre-Op that they naturally can get a fit note but we are just over a week away from the planned date and the OP is still in work so would "require" a convenient deterioration in their condition or a GP willing to write false fit notes. 

I'm not sure that I follow this.

Is the OP asking for a sick note to cover before the operation (as you put it 'pre-op')?

I though the problem was post-op sick leave for recovery.

Once the OP has had the operation his condition will be a deterioration from what it is now - hopefully only temporarily.
I suspect most operations are the same.
I was perfectly fine (apart from the issue I had) until I had out-patient planned surgery which put me off my feet for a week in a cast and then 8 weeks in a boot using crutches.
I would have been perfectly well to go to work until the day before the surgery (had I not been retired) and the consultant who did the operation would have given me a sick note to cover me until my 8 week assessment proved I was fit to return to work.

Apologies if I've missed that the OP wants time off before the operation.

My assumption, which could be wrong, is the OP wants time off for the op itself which is what I meant by "pre-op" as presumably they wouldnt be still working as they go in for their anesthetic but have the whole day off

I'm pretty sure that most people who are having an operation would expect to have the day of their operation off.
Plus any necessary time for recovery, supported by a sick note from the consultant.

I really don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

The only unreasonableness is - imho - the OP's boss's reaction to the proposed surgery.

Agree most people will expect to but as per the link from CAB there is actually no direct statutory requirement for their employers to allow it.  If you can possibly argue it indirectly via H&S legislation will depend on the job, illness etc.

Some have pointed out that there must be urgency in the OPs case given the relatively imminent option they've been given, personally I think that over interpreting the matter as they were also given the option of a notably later appointment and things that are urgent you are normally are just told it'll be done on the earliest date. I know when I had to see a consultant about my foot I was told to expect a circa 6 month wait but when they called they offered an appoint in a weeks time. That was simply because the previous call they'd taken was a cancellation so I got their slot, it didnt imply my case was critical. 

We can all moan about the fact there are bad bosses out there but ultimately they are acting within the law and advice really should focus on that rather than saying that a good boss wouldnt care etc.

At least 2 posters have queried your interpretation of that link.
And I certainly don't think it's as clear cut as you seem to think it is.

In the original post, the OP simply said:

clive0510 said:

This is not quite the right place for what I am about to say but hey. 
I have a hernia which is being repaired 6july. my boss does not want me to have it done as it will leave us extremely short staffed. we have people on holiday all through july and august. 
I have been offered another slot in september when every one is back off holls. but I want this thing done sooner rather than later. 
so I have told my boss I'm taking the july slot and he hasn't replied to the email I sent him. 
the way I see it is that I have told my boss, and he should tell his boss, ie the owner of the company. but I don't believe he's done that. I think maybe he's afraid he will be told that there is no one else, and the place will just have to manage. 
thanks for reading my post. as you can tell this is playing on my mind rather a lot, and I just wanted to tell some one. 

so I read it as he wasn't actually looking for advice, just to find out what others thought, and maybe some sympathy and support.
And most of those others have been been very clear about what they think about the OP's boss.
I think that focus has probably helped the OP more than your link to CAB.

Undervalued

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Universidad said:

DullGreyGuy said:

You have no statutory right for time off for medical procedures in the UK 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're over interpreting this bit of advice.

You're not legally entitled to attend medical appointments in work hours, but if you're not well enough to work you are entitled to sick leave (and may be entitled to sick pay).

After an operation, I believe the recovery period in which you are not fit for work would be covered under sickness absence, rather than considered an extended medical appointment.

As routine surgery it would ordinarily be done during normal working hours... ok we dont know what the OP does but it seems like they were asking their boss for leave to cover both the Op and the subsequent recovery. The Op itself would be a "medical appointment".

Have already acknowledged that if the OP is too sick to attend work pre-Op that they naturally can get a fit note but we are just over a week away from the planned date and the OP is still in work so would "require" a convenient deterioration in their condition or a GP willing to write false fit notes. 

I'm not sure that I follow this.

Is the OP asking for a sick note to cover before the operation (as you put it 'pre-op')?

I though the problem was post-op sick leave for recovery.

Once the OP has had the operation his condition will be a deterioration from what it is now - hopefully only temporarily.
I suspect most operations are the same.
I was perfectly fine (apart from the issue I had) until I had out-patient planned surgery which put me off my feet for a week in a cast and then 8 weeks in a boot using crutches.
I would have been perfectly well to go to work until the day before the surgery (had I not been retired) and the consultant who did the operation would have given me a sick note to cover me until my 8 week assessment proved I was fit to return to work.

Apologies if I've missed that the OP wants time off before the operation.

My assumption, which could be wrong, is the OP wants time off for the op itself which is what I meant by "pre-op" as presumably they wouldnt be still working as they go in for their anesthetic but have the whole day off

I'm pretty sure that most people who are having an operation would expect to have the day of their operation off.
Plus any necessary time for recovery, supported by a sick note from the consultant.

I really don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

The only unreasonableness is - imho - the OP's boss's reaction to the proposed surgery.

Agree most people will expect to but as per the link from CAB there is actually no direct statutory requirement for their employers to allow it.  If you can possibly argue it indirectly via H&S legislation will depend on the job, illness etc.

Some have pointed out that there must be urgency in the OPs case given the relatively imminent option they've been given, personally I think that over interpreting the matter as they were also given the option of a notably later appointment and things that are urgent you are normally are just told it'll be done on the earliest date. I know when I had to see a consultant about my foot I was told to expect a circa 6 month wait but when they called they offered an appoint in a weeks time. That was simply because the previous call they'd taken was a cancellation so I got their slot, it didnt imply my case was critical. 

We can all moan about the fact there are bad bosses out there but ultimately they are acting within the law and advice really should focus on that rather than saying that a good boss wouldnt care etc.

Indeed.

There are a lot of emotive (indignant even) posts in this thread but your posts correctly highlights the legal position.

Basically, leaving aside for the moment an employer's "duty of care", the legal position is simple. Taken literally, unless you are too ill to work (and certified by a doctor after the first week) any other absence such as holiday, routine medical appointments and so called "compassionate" leave (which is not defined in law) needs your employer's permission.

Routine elective surgery is a particularly interesting one in that the employee is very likely well enough to be at work up until the day of the operation but may well, as a result, be unable to work for at least a few days and maybe a lot longer afterwards.

Like so many things in law it comes down to what is reasonable. If the elective procedure is not urgent and could wait without significant harm then an employer may well be justified (legally) in insisting that it is arranged at a less disruptive time and covered by pre agreed annual leave. The fact many "good" employers would be far for accommodating doesn't, sadly, mean all have to be and more than a few are not.

Remember too, despite the name, the employer has to meet the full cost of statutory sick pay. The days of small employers being able to claim this back are long gone.

Some of the "advice" offered in this thread could easily lead to the OP losing their job. Very easy to sit at home and say "What a nasty employer, find another job with a better one". Sadly, in the real world, that is not always so easy!

Pollycat

Undervalued said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Pollycat said:

DullGreyGuy said:

Universidad said:

DullGreyGuy said:

You have no statutory right for time off for medical procedures in the UK 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're over interpreting this bit of advice.

You're not legally entitled to attend medical appointments in work hours, but if you're not well enough to work you are entitled to sick leave (and may be entitled to sick pay).

After an operation, I believe the recovery period in which you are not fit for work would be covered under sickness absence, rather than considered an extended medical appointment.

As routine surgery it would ordinarily be done during normal working hours... ok we dont know what the OP does but it seems like they were asking their boss for leave to cover both the Op and the subsequent recovery. The Op itself would be a "medical appointment".

Have already acknowledged that if the OP is too sick to attend work pre-Op that they naturally can get a fit note but we are just over a week away from the planned date and the OP is still in work so would "require" a convenient deterioration in their condition or a GP willing to write false fit notes. 

I'm not sure that I follow this.

Is the OP asking for a sick note to cover before the operation (as you put it 'pre-op')?

I though the problem was post-op sick leave for recovery.

Once the OP has had the operation his condition will be a deterioration from what it is now - hopefully only temporarily.
I suspect most operations are the same.
I was perfectly fine (apart from the issue I had) until I had out-patient planned surgery which put me off my feet for a week in a cast and then 8 weeks in a boot using crutches.
I would have been perfectly well to go to work until the day before the surgery (had I not been retired) and the consultant who did the operation would have given me a sick note to cover me until my 8 week assessment proved I was fit to return to work.

Apologies if I've missed that the OP wants time off before the operation.

My assumption, which could be wrong, is the OP wants time off for the op itself which is what I meant by "pre-op" as presumably they wouldnt be still working as they go in for their anesthetic but have the whole day off

I'm pretty sure that most people who are having an operation would expect to have the day of their operation off.
Plus any necessary time for recovery, supported by a sick note from the consultant.

I really don't think that is an unreasonable expectation.

The only unreasonableness is - imho - the OP's boss's reaction to the proposed surgery.

Agree most people will expect to but as per the link from CAB there is actually no direct statutory requirement for their employers to allow it.  If you can possibly argue it indirectly via H&S legislation will depend on the job, illness etc.

Some have pointed out that there must be urgency in the OPs case given the relatively imminent option they've been given, personally I think that over interpreting the matter as they were also given the option of a notably later appointment and things that are urgent you are normally are just told it'll be done on the earliest date. I know when I had to see a consultant about my foot I was told to expect a circa 6 month wait but when they called they offered an appoint in a weeks time. That was simply because the previous call they'd taken was a cancellation so I got their slot, it didnt imply my case was critical. 

We can all moan about the fact there are bad bosses out there but ultimately they are acting within the law and advice really should focus on that rather than saying that a good boss wouldnt care etc.

Indeed.

There are a lot of emotive (indignant even) posts in this thread but your posts correctly highlights the legal position.

Basically, leaving aside for the moment an employer's "duty of care", the legal position is simple. Taken literally, unless you are too ill to work (and certified by a doctor after the first week) any other absence such as holiday, routine medical appointments and so called "compassionate" leave (which is not defined in law) needs your employer's permission.

Routine elective surgery is a particularly interesting one in that the employee is very likely well enough to be at work up until the day of the operation but may well, as a result, be unable to work for at least a few days and maybe a lot longer afterwards.

Like so many things in law it comes down to what is reasonable. If the elective procedure is not urgent and could wait without significant harm then an employer may well be justified (legally) in insisting that it is arranged at a less disruptive time and covered by pre agreed annual leave. The fact many "good" employers would be far for accommodating doesn't, sadly, mean all have to be and more than a few are not.

Remember too, despite the name, the employer has to meet the full cost of statutory sick pay. The days of small employers being able to claim this back are long gone.

Some of the "advice" offered in this thread could easily lead to the OP losing their job. Very easy to sit at home and say "What a nasty employer, find another job with a better one". Sadly, in the real world, that is not always so easy!

The OP stated in the original post that:

clive0510 said:

so I have told my boss I'm taking the july slot and he hasn't replied to the email I sent him. 

so can't see where your "Some of the "advice" offered in this thread could easily lead to the OP losing their job." comes in.
I've not read any post that advises ' find another job with a better one [boss]'.

The OP has clearly assessed his position and is prepared to give up his job if it comes to that:

clive0510 said:

financially I have no worries, so it wouldn't matter to me if waved my 8-5.30 job goodbye. if I have to I will.

Aretnap

Undervalued said:

Some of the "advice" offered in this thread could easily lead to the OP losing their job. Very easy to sit at home and say "What a nasty employer, find another job with a better one". Sadly, in the real world, that is not always so easy!

A few points in response to that..

First, if the company is already struggling with staff shortages then it's clearly not in their interests to sack him, regardless of whether they'd be entitled to. So the most likely outcome is that his boss huffs and puffs but does little. Admittedly people do irrational things sometimes, so this is not a nailed on certainly.

Secondly while there may be no direct statutory obligation for the boys to authorise the time off, it doesn't follow that the company would be entitled to dismiss him for having the operation. Assuming he has been employed for two years unfair dismissal would apply if dismissing him was not the act of a reasonable employer, and IMHO dismissing an employee for having an operation his doctor advised is necessary at a (rare) time that the NHS can actually do it is not the act of a reasonable employer.

And most importantly the OP has indicated that financially he is in a position to tell his boss where to stick his job if necessary. Were that not the case I might agree that discretion could be the better part of valour, but in the OP's position my inclination would be to inform (not ask) my boss that I would be having surgery on X date and wait and see what happened next. If I was dismissed I would hope to collect enough money from a wrongful dismissal case to begin my retirement with a nice cruise at the company's expense.

Iansellers

Your health is more important than any company.

I always try to copy relevantly people into important emails, basically to cover my backside. Learnt the hard way many years ago when colleagues used to copy in everyone, used to annoy me but now I do the same just to cover myself.

You should never have to consider how the company will manage without you, that's for your manager to work out, not your problem.

Hope the operation goes well.