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Octopus Agile prices from 1st July
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Spoonie_Turtle said:The point of plunge pricing is to pay people to use it, to take the excess off the grid. The whole point is to get people to use it.
The saving sessions where people were gaming it to use unnecessarily excessive energy (and I don't just mean load shifting stuff they would have done at a different time) didn't sit right with me. But this is different.
I do feel for those struggling, and the inherent uncertainty with something like Agile means it's not accessible to most people who are struggling, because they can't take the risk which also means they then can't access the plunge pricing. It is inherently classist, in that respect, and I don't know what the solution could be to make it more equitable.
BUT I have no problem with people using the plunge pricing for what it's for - it feels counterintuitive, but the whole concept of needing to save energy is so we don't waste resources. When there's excess renewable energy that they need to get rid of because there isn't the storage capacity, it's necessary to use it, and it's not like they're burning extra fossil fuels to keep up with the wasteful usage.Spoonie_Turtle said:
BUT I have no problem with people using the plunge pricing for what it's for - it feels counterintuitive, but the whole concept of needing to save energy is so we don't waste resources. When there's excess renewable energy that they need to get rid of because there isn't the storage capacity, it's necessary to use it, and it's not like they're burning extra fossil fuels to keep up with the wasteful usage.What sort of people have we become ?0 -
scobie said:Spoonie_Turtle said:The point of plunge pricing is to pay people to use it, to take the excess off the grid. The whole point is to get people to use it.
The saving sessions where people were gaming it to use unnecessarily excessive energy (and I don't just mean load shifting stuff they would have done at a different time) didn't sit right with me. But this is different.
I do feel for those struggling, and the inherent uncertainty with something like Agile means it's not accessible to most people who are struggling, because they can't take the risk which also means they then can't access the plunge pricing. It is inherently classist, in that respect, and I don't know what the solution could be to make it more equitable.
BUT I have no problem with people using the plunge pricing for what it's for - it feels counterintuitive, but the whole concept of needing to save energy is so we don't waste resources. When there's excess renewable energy that they need to get rid of because there isn't the storage capacity, it's necessary to use it, and it's not like they're burning extra fossil fuels to keep up with the wasteful usage.Spoonie_Turtle said:
BUT I have no problem with people using the plunge pricing for what it's for - it feels counterintuitive, but the whole concept of needing to save energy is so we don't waste resources. When there's excess renewable energy that they need to get rid of because there isn't the storage capacity, it's necessary to use it, and it's not like they're burning extra fossil fuels to keep up with the wasteful usage.What sort of people have we become ?
If there is more generation than demand, then you either need to reduce the generation or increase the demand. You suggest that the second of these options is somewhere immoral and obscene, so that means you'd prefer we just continue to pay vast amounts of cash to big power generation companies.
It's not "intellectualising" to understand reality.
What sort of people have we become? Ones who hopefully don't feel the need to hand-wring and moralise with a less-than-complete understanding of the situation.1 -
Spoonie_Turtle said:The point of plunge pricing is to pay people to use it, to take the excess off the grid. The whole point is to get people to use it.
The saving sessions where people were gaming it to use unnecessarily excessive energy (and I don't just mean load shifting stuff they would have done at a different time) didn't sit right with me. But this is different.
I do feel for those struggling, and the inherent uncertainty with something like Agile means it's not accessible to most people who are struggling, because they can't take the risk which also means they then can't access the plunge pricing. It is inherently classist, in that respect, and I don't know what the solution could be to make it more equitable.
BUT I have no problem with people using the plunge pricing for what it's for - it feels counterintuitive, but the whole concept of needing to save energy is so we don't waste resources. When there's excess renewable energy that they need to get rid of because there isn't the storage capacity, it's necessary to use it, and it's not like they're burning extra fossil fuels to keep up with the wasteful usage.Yes - exactly this.Although the idea of wasting electricity feels wrong and goes against the grain, in this particular scenario the National Grid (or whoever?) had already made commitments to generate the electricity. It was a question of either having to pay someone to shut down a wind turbine or pay someone less to use electricity. No extra CO2 was generated as a result of my decision to waste electricity. No other consumer (vulnerable or otherwise) was in any way disadvantaged as a result of my decision. So although it seems, to use my original word, bizarre to waste electricity by having an air conditioner and heater on in the same room - and to repeat it also feels wrong - if you look at it in the cold, hard light of pragmatism it's difficult to see anything that actually is wrong.Of course, it would be better if the National Grid hadn't estimated things wrong in the first place but that is bound to happen occasionally. And it would be better if it was economic to store the spare electricity rather than waste but it isn't.For the record, I made a grand total of £4.55 yesterday after I'd paid the standing charge and factored in exports....0 -
scobie said:Spoonie_Turtle said:The point of plunge pricing is to pay people to use it, to take the excess off the grid. The whole point is to get people to use it.
The saving sessions where people were gaming it to use unnecessarily excessive energy (and I don't just mean load shifting stuff they would have done at a different time) didn't sit right with me. But this is different.
I do feel for those struggling, and the inherent uncertainty with something like Agile means it's not accessible to most people who are struggling, because they can't take the risk which also means they then can't access the plunge pricing. It is inherently classist, in that respect, and I don't know what the solution could be to make it more equitable.
BUT I have no problem with people using the plunge pricing for what it's for - it feels counterintuitive, but the whole concept of needing to save energy is so we don't waste resources. When there's excess renewable energy that they need to get rid of because there isn't the storage capacity, it's necessary to use it, and it's not like they're burning extra fossil fuels to keep up with the wasteful usage.Spoonie_Turtle said:
BUT I have no problem with people using the plunge pricing for what it's for - it feels counterintuitive, but the whole concept of needing to save energy is so we don't waste resources. When there's excess renewable energy that they need to get rid of because there isn't the storage capacity, it's necessary to use it, and it's not like they're burning extra fossil fuels to keep up with the wasteful usage.What sort of people have we become ?
Having excess energy in the summer doesn't help people to run their heaters in winter, as we don't have the storage for it.
The people on these tariffs get to make use of the lower prices because they can also weather the risk of the higher prices (particularly as Agile factors in peak-time costs of 4-7pm, which many people includong families with young children won't be able to avoid unless they have battery storage). Or there's Tracker to benefit from cheaper daily prices, which doesn't get plunge pricing.
There is currently no feasible way to reduce the price for everyone in those slots. But if you can think of a way, let Ofgem and your MP know your idea for how to implement it.
I don't think expecting people to not use the tariff for its intended purpose, in the absence of any more equitable situation, would be fair.0 -
The question that people should be asking is why are other suppliers not offering tracker tariffs - or even proper time-of-use tariffs (ToU) for that matter? ToU tariffs do not have to be risky as Agile and Tracker could be, and people would save money by choosing the cheapest period to carryout high power tasks.
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[Deleted User] said:The question that people should be asking is why are other suppliers not offering tracker tariffs - or even proper time-of-use tariffs (ToU) for that matter? ToU tariffs do not have to be risky as Agile and Tracker could be, and people would save money by choosing the cheapest period to carryout high power tasks.It follows SVT prices so is as stable as you can get without fixing. With Cosy each day you get 15 hours at the SVT rate, two 3 hour off-peak slots (morning and afternoon), and a 3 hour evening peak slot. Could be very good for all electric households with panel heaters, for example, potentially being able to get all heating needs off-peak without the need for storage heaters. And as it’s not a tracker ToU tariff, there’s no more risk or uncertainty in the rates than any other SVT.
Having looked at the numbers based on actual usage, I estimate that for my household (of relatively low energy use) a ToU tariff in the style of Cosy with some basic load-shifting saves around 12% of annual costs compared with SVT.Moo…2 -
Looks like energy-stats has finally removed its 33/35p cap, the highest its peaked since 1 July in my region has been around 37p only for one 30 min period both times.
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[Deleted User] said:The question that people should be asking is why are other suppliers not offering tracker tariffs - or even proper time-of-use tariffs (ToU) for that matter? ToU tariffs do not have to be risky as Agile and Tracker could be, and people would save money by choosing the cheapest period to carryout high power tasks.They used to - until someone decided they were outdated and not needed - read New Lab energy policy documents for instance - talks a lot about flexible options with smart rollout - not about fixed TOU.And then their are the odern day questions - currently only 1.3m BEV cars (EV and plug in hybrids) on the road - of c33m cars. What happens to night loading and so night rates when thats 10m or 20m or 30m ?Or evening peaks - when 25m homes switch from GCH to electric etc.Even today Ofgem has issues around admitting a substantial number of homes still need such a tariff for electric hot water and storage heating. And with older NSH - E7 the only one they half heartedly support - isn't really the best solution - in terms of house heating / temperature profile. And so have failed to ensure such tariffs werer supported by new suppliers - and being pretty ropy on the support given to legacy customers on them by big 6.It's near impossible to switch legacy time of use tariffs - other than on E7. Ofgem didn't make any of the new suppliers / start-ups support it initially - iirc anything sub 50k didn't ever have to. And most never did - other than E7. The supposed voluntary support code for legacy customers - and tariff migration - actually recommended anyone should be allowed to switch back to old tariff if the new one didn't work out for them. Never seemed to have been pit into regulations by Ofgem.My E10 only has 2 rates - and in my region - they apply 1:4pm, 8-10pm and 12midnight to 5AM GMT - all year round.So I avoid the morning mini AM peak (6:30-8:30 sh) and the evening peak (4-7pm) - and because my times are fixed - habitually so - it's far easier to adapt permanently to doing so.If my house is a bit chilly by noon - because the NSH have cooled - I just wait until 1pm - and they are boosted again - or plug in heaters can boost quickly at off-peak rate. Less wasteful by heating them to last all day say by 3-4AM on E7 - and the room being hottest overnight when I am not in it.IIRC Octopus now offer a tariff with 3 rates - possibly an EV special - a normal - a cheap off-peak - and a premium cost peak for is it c3 hours a day. And with their 1/2hr billing off of smart data recovery - they and other suppliers - if adopted their billing systems - certainly could break that down / refine even further - without the need to go unpredictable wholesale spot agile / tracker path.But that is exactly the nightmare scenario some Smart meter objectors - do not want.But as I say - some degree of predictability to time slots really helps us mere humans make lifestyle adjustments.I really dont want to have to watch my smart meter display rate every 1/2 hr of every day to decide whether to have a shower, put the oven or the washing machine on for an hour etc.0
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Scot_39 said:[Deleted User] said:The question that people should be asking is why are other suppliers not offering tracker tariffs - or even proper time-of-use tariffs (ToU) for that matter? ToU tariffs do not have to be risky as Agile and Tracker could be, and people would save money by choosing the cheapest period to carryout high power tasks.They used to - until someone decided they were outdated and not needed - read New Lab energy policy documents for instance - talks a lot about flexible options with smart rollout - not about fixed TOU.And then their are the odern day questions - currently only 1.3m BEV cars (EV and plug in hybrids) on the road - of c33m cars. What happens to night loading and so night rates when thats 10m or 20m or 30m ?Or evening peaks - when 25m homes switch from GCH to electric etc.Even today Ofgem has issues around admitting a substantial number of homes still need such a tariff for electric hot water and storage heating. And with older NSH - E7 the only one they half heartedly support - isn't really the best solution - in terms of house heating / temperature profile. And so have failed to ensure such tariffs werer supported by new suppliers - and being pretty ropy on the support given to legacy customers on them by big 6.It's near impossible to switch legacy time of use tariffs - other than on E7. Ofgem didn't make any of the new suppliers / start-ups support it initially - iirc anything sub 50k didn't ever have to. And most never did - other than E7. The supposed voluntary support code for legacy customers - and tariff migration - actually recommended anyone should be allowed to switch back to old tariff if the new one didn't work out for them. Never seemed to have been pit into regulations by Ofgem.My E10 only has 2 rates - and in my region - they apply 1:4pm, 8-10pm and 12midnight to 5AM GMT - all year round.So I avoid the morning mini AM peak (6:30-8:30 sh) and the evening peak (4-7pm) - and because my times are fixed - habitually so - it's far easier to adapt permanently to doing so.If my house is a bit chilly by noon - because the NSH have cooled - I just wait until 1pm - and they are boosted again - or plug in heaters can boost quickly at off-peak rate. Less wasteful by heating them to last all day say by 3-4AM on E7 - and the room being hottest overnight when I am not in it.IIRC Octopus now offer a tariff with 3 rates - possibly an EV special - a normal - a cheap off-peak - and a premium cost peak for is it c3 hours a day. And with their 1/2hr billing off of smart data recovery - they and other suppliers - if adopted their billing systems - certainly could break that down / refine even further - without the need to go unpredictable wholesale spot agile / tracker path.But that is exactly the nightmare scenario some Smart meter objectors - do not want.But as I say - some degree of predictability to time slots really helps us mere humans make lifestyle adjustments.I really dont want to have to watch my smart meter display rate every 1/2 hr of every day to decide whether to have a shower, put the oven or the washing machine on for an hour etc.Sadly Ofgem are not someone we can look to for inspiration on this, as you said they seem to be struggling to even understand the merits of modernising the industry, instead they seem distracted by keeping costs down for heavy users (shift of transit costs from unit rate to SC) and keeping suppliers happy (adding new things to SC, amongst other industry concessions)Usually one would hope competition sorts these things out but not one other supplier is even trying to compete with things like tracker and export tariffs.I suppose its the old view point, just worry about the majority who are still content enough on old school hedge based tariffs.0
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To be fair until iirc 7th of July - Tracker was a kind of beta trial / experimental tariff with Octopus - with numbers carefully controlled (50,000 cap ?) - some people literally in queues for 2-3 months.And I also seem to remember tweets cFeb time - with their management saying not only in Beta - but loss making.So perhaps other suppliers not overly anxious to follow - but if they start losing customers in droves now cap off - who knows.It will be interesting to see what happens with tracker and agile rate averages cf Ofgem rates in the future now EPG skew removed.They certainly have been very far apart.But wholesale spot - and guaranteed future delivery prices are inherently different - and so it can be expected that there will be some difference. Which is why people take the bigger risks (higher wholesale cap on price and fixed term in some places) on tracker tariffs in other nations - as they do regularly offer real savings over the long term.But with a whole raft of media articles around the full opening up to existing and new - with say recent monthly electric rates reportedly in the 8-20p range - cf EPG 33p and July cap c30p - the picture being painted is perhaps on the rosy side.But as Octopus themselves caution - on their tariff FAQ page"Over the warmer months, prices tend to be lower, and we expect them to increase – likely double – when the heating comes on and the sun starts setting earlier."So 8.5-20p could by 17-40p typically in winter - and even more in a wholesale spike like the 3 week one last Dec (when wholesale rates hit c£400/MWh).And if the gap doesn't close - I expect there will be media - and hence political will - to look increasingly into the issues. As there will be (iirc is now ?) to the grid auction system - another reason the UK has fared far worse on energy inflation - than some of our international competition.But importantly the way Octopus operate tracker is different from other implementations overseas - where some are actual long term fixed contracts - but unlike UK fixes - many such tracker tariff deals are fixed term not fixed pricing - with no opt outs back to standard variable tariff (in "upto 2 weeks" ?)Be interesting to see if Octopus can continue to offer that 2 week switch guarantee - if the numbers swell into 100,000s / possibly millions. Again Octopus seem to be setting themselves up for further potential losses by allowing this - but they do stop instant flicking back - with a 9 month lockout once leave in above FAQ.They certainly got a lot of "free" press last week as they removed the "subscriber" cap.
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