Cancellation of Direct Debit by NHS Business Services

BarefootinHastings

eskbanker said:

^ The point of my post was just to highlight that there doesn't seem to be any mileage in discussing the matter with Nationwide, so, yes, you need to resolve with NHS BSA.  It still unclear to me whether the DD mandate was actually cancelled or not, but ultimately it doesn't really make a huge amount of difference, in that NHS BSA were the ones who were in control of how and when to collect the money - I get why you feel that you had no responsibility to validate that the payments were being made, but that case becomes weaker if this has been going on for over three years and they claim to have made multiple attempts to contact you, so difficult to know how this would be viewed by a neutral body such as a court....

But they have not made multiple attempts to contact me. 

1) a letter = I did not receive any letter
2) a phone call to my mobile during the work day - how many people answer their mobile phone at work... and I am a teacher so am I supposed to take calls during lessons? - a phone call with no message left

Is that really "multiple attempts" - is it even an "attempt"? 

I tried to contact NHS BSA, but couldn't get through... does that mean I can forget any penalty notices because I made an "attempt" to call them? 

Why does that logic only work one way?

BarefootinHastings

eskbanker said:

It still unclear to me whether the DD mandate was actually cancelled or not, but ultimately it doesn't really make a huge amount of difference, in that NHS BSA were the ones who were in control of how and when to collect the money - I get why you feel that you had no responsibility to validate that the payments were being made, but that case becomes weaker if this has been going on for over three years and they claim to have made multiple attempts to contact you, so difficult to know how this would be viewed by a neutral body such as a court....

What is unclear when NHS BSA say they cancelled it and stopped taking the money. Is that not on them?

And like lots of direct debits that go out monthly.... they just go on and on, unless the customer cancels them. Isn't that the point of direct debits?

eskbanker

BarefootinHastings said:

eskbanker said:

^ The point of my post was just to highlight that there doesn't seem to be any mileage in discussing the matter with Nationwide, so, yes, you need to resolve with NHS BSA.  It still unclear to me whether the DD mandate was actually cancelled or not, but ultimately it doesn't really make a huge amount of difference, in that NHS BSA were the ones who were in control of how and when to collect the money - I get why you feel that you had no responsibility to validate that the payments were being made, but that case becomes weaker if this has been going on for over three years and they claim to have made multiple attempts to contact you, so difficult to know how this would be viewed by a neutral body such as a court....

But they have not made multiple attempts to contact me. 

1) a letter = I did not receive any letter
2) a phone call to my mobile during the work day - how many people answer their mobile phone at work... and I am a teacher so am I supposed to take calls during lessons? - a phone call with no message left

Is that really "multiple attempts" - is it even an "attempt"? 

I tried to contact NHS BSA, but couldn't get through... does that mean I can forget any penalty notices because I made an "attempt" to call them? 

Why does that logic only work one way?

Two does indeed constitute 'multiple', albeit only just, but I'm not trying to defend them here, just pointing out that there are two sides to every story, and trying to equate your failed attempt to contact them with theirs doesn't really work - the penalty notices are presumably because you've received prescriptions without paying for them, even though your case is that you didn't realise this.

BarefootinHastings

eskbanker said:

^ The point of my post was just to highlight that there doesn't seem to be any mileage in discussing the matter with Nationwide, so, yes, you need to resolve with NHS BSA.  It still unclear to me whether the DD mandate was actually cancelled or not, but ultimately it doesn't really make a huge amount of difference, in that NHS BSA were the ones who were in control of how and when to collect the money - I get why you feel that you had no responsibility to validate that the payments were being made, but that case becomes weaker if this has been going on for over three years and they claim to have made multiple attempts to contact you, so difficult to know how this would be viewed by a neutral body such as a court....

Apologies it my responses come across as angsty. Just this whole situation is frustrating and not helping me sleep... 

Nothing is aimed at anyone, and I really appreciate all the insights and responses (apart from the Nationwide is not a bank... ). 

Can I just clarify what you mean by a mandate?

eskbanker

BarefootinHastings said:
Can I just clarify what you mean by a mandate?

The DD mandate is the authorisation record held at your bank/building society, which allows the specified company to collect regular payments thereafter - it'll usually be visible in online banking.  It can only be set up with the account holder's authority, usually given via the company who will then collect payments.

BarefootinHastings

Two does indeed constitute 'multiple', albeit only just, but I'm not trying to defend them here, just pointing out that there are two sides to every story, and trying to equate your failed attempt to contact them with theirs doesn't really work - the penalty notices are presumably because you've received prescriptions without paying for them, even though your case is that you didn't realise this.

As I say, an "attempt" is a pretty rubbish way of doing business. I attempted to pay my mortgage, but hey... it's the attempt that counts right?    Not sure the banks would accept that way of doing things. 

The penalty notices are for claiming prescriptions on a PPC when in actuality I did not have a valid one... which I would have if NHS BSA had continued the direct debit like they had in the past and as in their T&C. 

eskbanker

BarefootinHastings said:

Two does indeed constitute 'multiple', albeit only just, but I'm not trying to defend them here, just pointing out that there are two sides to every story, and trying to equate your failed attempt to contact them with theirs doesn't really work - the penalty notices are presumably because you've received prescriptions without paying for them, even though your case is that you didn't realise this.

As I say, an "attempt" is a pretty rubbish way of doing business. I attempted to pay my mortgage, but hey... it's the attempt that counts right?    Not sure the banks would accept that way of doing things. 

The penalty notices are for claiming prescriptions on a PPC when in actuality I did not have a valid one... which I would have if NHS BSA had continued the direct debit like they had in the past and as in their T&C. 

As I say, I'm not trying to defend them here, just highlighting that it doesn't seem to me to be a completely black and white situation of them being 100% at fault - I don't know what the letter and call would actually have said anyway, so it might be worth trying to get to the bottom of that?  I'm not familiar with the whole PPC process anyway - is there any way of validating that you have a PPC other than seeing money leaving your account, e.g. do you get any sort of confirmation or acknowledgement of renewal, etc?

warby68

I get a written notice of renewal every 12months. You used to get a card with it but now just the letter. 

I don't think you'll get a full explanation and apology as it was probably cancelled by a simple error and was meant to be someone else's. There will be little desire to try and backtrace an error from 3 years ago. I don't see any mileage in trying to trace the contact points as they were probably sent to whoever had actually asked to cancel. Its nothing to do with your bank either. DD origination comes from the payee even though either can cancel.

I would go in with a complaint but being very nice as it does seem that its about 3 years since you stopped paying. Yes you're right it shouldn't have been cancelled but also you have a reciprocal responsibility to check things and 3 years is a long time. Objectively, it is probably moot whose is the biggest error and as you have the most to lose, you will probably get further being conciliatory than trying to pin them to the wall. The public sector sometimes has different motivations to the private sector due to zero competition.

BarefootinHastings

warby68 said:

I get a written notice of renewal every 12months. You used to get a card with it but now just the letter. 

I don't think you'll get a full explanation and apology as it was probably cancelled by a simple error and was meant to be someone else's. There will be little desire to try and backtrace an error from 3 years ago. I don't see any mileage in trying to trace the contact points as they were probably sent to whoever had actually asked to cancel. Its nothing to do with your bank either. DD origination comes from the payee even though either can cancel.

I would go in with a complaint but being very nice as it does seem that its about 3 years since you stopped paying. Yes you're right it shouldn't have been cancelled but also you have a reciprocal responsibility to check things and 3 years is a long time. Objectively, it is probably moot whose is the biggest error and as you have the most to lose, you will probably get further being conciliatory than trying to pin them to the wall. The public sector sometimes has different motivations to the private sector due to zero competition.

Indeed. Hence why I said I would be happy to pay the monies that I would have paid for the direct debit had they renewed it. I believe that that is the sensible solution. It's money that I would have paid so I do not expect a freebie and it's the money that they should have taken. 

However, when I tried to discuss this matter with the person at NHS BSA dealing with the penalty charges, all they kept doing was shouting down the phone phrases such as "It's your fault" or "It's not our responsibility" there was never any acknowledgement that they or the PPC department have any accountability. 

Can't really be conciliatory when the other side is insistent on pinning 100% of the blame on you. 

ThumbRemote

This may be an occasion when it's worth contacting your MP. There's nothing to lose by trying. 

I'd also avoid saying that NHSBA cancelled the direct debit. It appears that what they've actually done is stopped taking the money from it. If you phrase it as "stopped taking the money" it makes it clear the action was entirely on their part and not down to the bank or yourself.