We Need to Change your Meter

spireman

British Gas have been badgering me to have a smart meter fitted. After refusing for two or three years they now say that my existing electric meter is old and potentially dangerous so I need a new one.  They offer a free smart meter but if I want the existing one replaced I have to pay the cost.  Oh! and if I go for the Smartmeter option they will also change my Gas meter for free as well.   Luckily they have failed to arrive for two appointments and paid me £60 for the inconvenience now I really don't want one until the glitches have been resolved and the true reasons that the government want them rolled out have come to light.   Do the government forsee that there will not be enough power to run electric cars and households so they need a means of rationing /controlling use ?

I have many questions but the main two are;
1. Is it really necessary to replace older electricity meters or was this just a sales pitch?

2. What are the disadvantages for customers with Smart meters?   Can they be cut off remotely on a whim?  Can they be manipulated by the energy company to increase charges?   How can the customer monitor usage against the billed usage?

mmmmikey

1. Yes - this is well documented. All meters are required by law to be replaced when they come to the end of their certification period and the government requires the energy company to replace them with smart meters in the absence of a good reason otherwise.

2. For the vast majority of people there is no compelling practical reason not to have a smart meter and most of the objections now either stem from a resistance to change, political reasons or online conspiracy theories and misinformation. There are all kinds of checks and balances in place to stop energy suppliers cutting you off on a whim and even where there is good reason it's quite a lengthy court process for them to actually cut you off. As far as charges are concerned, many people pay less if they have a smart meter (for example smart  prepayment charges are less with some suppliers than older prepayment meters, and credit customers are starting to see cheaper tariffs emerge only for smart meter customers. So you will likely have the option to save money if you get a smart meter. As far as checking bills is concerned, you can still read the meter manually if you prefer so no difference there.

Hope this helps, Mike

Mstty

Ermmmm, get back to you

Advantages

1) access to money saving time of use tariffs
2) easier to see usage on your phone an advantage to some
3) access to the energy saving events if they even return lots earned over £200 on this forum. 
4) required for solar and exporting excess energy
5) they replace our of date (yes all meters have an end of life) dumb meters although you can ask the smart meter to be set to dumb is you really want it that way

Disadvantages (but not to all)

1) yes your usage is recorded so they can tell when you are having a number 2 
2)  perhaps number 1 should have been number 2?
3) easier to switch you to prepayment should you get into financial difficulty but they still need to go through the due process.

CSI_Yorkshire

spireman said:

 my existing electric meter is old and potentially dangerous so I need a new one.  They offer a free smart meter but if I want the existing one replaced I have to pay the cost.  

Yes, that sounds about right.  Although it's potentially not accurate more than potentially dangerous (although not such a good soundbite).

spireman said:

I really don't want one until the glitches have been resolved 

What glitches?  Some actual problems that stop the meters working out how much you have used? Or some random theory on the internet that's been disproved several times over?  Let us know what glitch you are worried about and we'll let you know.

spireman said:

 and the true reasons that the government want them rolled out have come to light.   

Because things have improved since the 1960s and the energy networks need to catch up?  This sounds pretty close to conspiracy theory.  Better understanding of the system, better matching between supply and demand which results in lower prices, less inaccuracy, less problems of bad debt, greater transparency, less need for manual data processing...  Which of these 'true reasons' is a bad thing?

spireman said:

 Do the government forsee that there will not be enough power to run electric cars and households so they need a means of rationing /controlling use ?

No.  No other comment needed.

spireman said:

1. Is it really necessary to replace older electricity meters or was this just a sales pitch?

Yes it is.

spireman said:

2. What are the disadvantages for customers with Smart meters? 

No disadvantages that aren't already there with every other meter.  And some of those have been fixed.

spireman said:

Can they be cut off remotely on a whim?

No.

spireman said:

Can they be manipulated by the energy company to increase charges?

No.

spireman said:

How can the customer monitor usage against the billed usage?

The same way you always have done.  Look at the number on the meter and look at the number on the bill, then make sure they are the same.  It's no secret!

Gerry1

spireman said:

2. What are the disadvantages for customers with Smart meters?   Can they be cut off remotely on a whim?  Can they be manipulated by the energy company to increase charges?   How can the customer monitor usage against the billed usage?

Cut off ? Yes. You can be cut off remotely.  Not on a whim, but as a last resort if there's a serious energy shortage and rationing hasn't worked well enough.  Known as Load Shedding.  A smart electricity meter has a remotely controlled relay and a gas smart meter has a Shut Off Valve.

A milder version is Load Limiting.  When there's a shortage, your smart meter can restrict you to only a limited amount of power e.g. 4kW.  Kettle yes, kettle and tumble dryer no: you'll have your own individual power cut until you reduce your demand below the permitted limit.

Increased charges? Yes.  Time of Use tariffs can do this, popularly known as Surge Pricing.  So far it's mostly been used to give ' free' or reduced rate electricity  but already there have been some 'offers' where you get a low rate but a higher rate between 4pm  - 7pm.  Good luck to anyone who thinks that ToU will forever save you money but never work out more expensive or highly inconvenient...

Similarly, Block Tariffs can charge more per kWh as usage rises.

Before anyone mentions tin foil hats and conspiracy theories, don't bother because all the above is completely factual and comes from the smart meter specification.  You'll find that Demand Side Response is the official term for making customers ration their energy usage and shift the times when they use it.

Ayr_Rage

You wouldn't leave any appliance running for 10/15/20+ years and expect it to work as when it was new.

Any meter with rotating parts has a service life and gets replaced at the end of it.

doodling

Hi,

Gerry1 said:

spireman said:

2. What are the disadvantages for customers with Smart meters?   Can they be cut off remotely on a whim?  Can they be manipulated by the energy company to increase charges?   How can the customer monitor usage against the billed usage?

Cut off ? Yes. You can be cut off remotely.  Not on a whim, but as a last resort if there's a serious energy shortage and rationing hasn't worked well enough.  Known as Load Shedding.  A smart electricity meter has a remotely controlled relay and a gas smart meter has a Shut Off Valve.

Whilst this is correct in absolute sense, I suspect it is wrong in a practical sense.  The processes in place for shedding electrical load at present rely on the local electricity distributor cutting off supplies at the local substation.  There will be no change to that process until everyone has a smart meter and the national grid has confidence that using smart meters would work - I suspect that that level of confidence may never be gained.  If they used smart meters as a control measure right now for load shedding then I suspect that:

1. a large proportion of smart meters would end up wrapped in aluminium foil rendering them useless for the purpose;
2. there would be a public outcry about the unacceptability of cutting off everyone with smart meters whilst letting those with old fashioned meters retain a supply; and
3. There would be a general political backlash about smart meters being used in this way. 

In theory smart gas meters could be used for load shedding on the gas network but it is likely to be completely unnecessary.  Gas fired power stations would be shut down before domestic supplies are cut off and the resultant shortage of electricity would result in electrical load shedding which in turn would cause a substantial reduction in gas demand as most boilers won't run without an electricity supply.

A milder version is Load Limiting.  When there's a shortage, your smart meter can restrict you to only a limited amount of power e.g. 4kW.  Kettle yes, kettle and tumble dryer no: you'll have your own individual power cut until you reduce your demand below the permitted limit.

Again, this is a capability but it isn't clear to me whether it could ever sensibly be used to manage electricity shortages.  The issue at times of peak demand is the aggregate demand of all households - limiting the peak load of a single household will simply squash the peak demand of that household at the cost of lengthening the duration of that demand.  Once you superimpose the demands of all households on top of each other I don't think that buys you very much.  Load limiting may possibly reduce a peak a little but I suspect it would need to be set to such a low value to achieve a practical reduction in demand that it renders stuff like cooking impractical (i.e. it would need to be set to a value less than 2kW) - at that point you might as well cut off the supply altogether - something that can be done much more reliably without smart meters being involved at all.  Even if it was used, it would be politically unacceptable to do so before all metering is smart.

It would be possible to use that feature to create power limited tariffs which would be used to try and limit the peak loading in the local distribution network - there are places in Europe (Spain comes to mind) where such tariffs already exist.  This would be nothing to do with electricity shortages but would be related to insufficient wires in the ground locally.  I suppose that if electric cars and heat pumps took off in a big way then such tariffs might be required, but historically UK distribution operators have (generally) been successful in providing domestic supplies to meet demand without them.

Increased charges? Yes.  Time of Use tariffs can do this, popularly known as Surge Pricing.  So far it's mostly been used to give ' free' or reduced rate electricity  but already there have been some 'offers' where you get a low rate but a higher rate between 4pm  - 7pm.  Good luck to anyone who thinks that ToU will forever save you money but never work out more expensive or highly inconvenient...

Similarly, Block Tariffs can charge more per kWh as usage rises.

By choosing "green" energy and by adopting a nimby approach to new nuclear, the public has agreed (knowingly or not) that the price of electricity will be more volatile in the future - that volatility will almost certainly feed through to variable pricing to consumers.  One might expect that those consumers who choose to buy based on price, at the cost of convenience will overall have lower bills than those who don't, just as those consumers who visit supermarkets in the evening when they're getting rid of all the short dated stuff will on average have lower grocery bills.  It is therefore likely that time of use tariffs will save money compared to a non time of use tariff.  Of course, that doesn't mean that there won't be substantial periods of time when electricity is very expensive, just that those who have the ability to choose to buy when it is cheap are likely to win overall.

Before anyone mentions tin foil hats and conspiracy theories, don't bother because all the above is completely factual and comes from the smart meter specification.  You'll find that Demand Side Response is the official term for making customers ration their energy usage and shift the times when they use it.

I agree that smart meters have the features, I have a different view as to the likelihood that those features will be used.

joesoap1264

Here was me thinking I was one of few people targeted by energy companies to change my meter.
I have had 3 in the last week from Scottish power.
more posters seem to have had the same generic e mails .
Like buses,three follow straight after one another,within a week, but different companies, Scottish power, British Gas, Edf.
more to follow no doubt.
coincidence!
Doubt it.
targets or fines for companies for not meeting quotas, most definitely.
OP.
Digest  advice offered on here, but, form your own opinion.
look at similar threads. Plenty here.

joesoap1264

Just out of curiosity, yesterday I decided to check my 28+ year old analogue meter for accuracy, I turned everything in the house off.
meter stationary.ok
put a 1 kw electric fire on for 1 hour, meter reading , 1.01 Kws used, accurate enough for me.
doubt the new digital meters or smart meters are that accurate.
any safety issues are 99.9% are like to be from consumer box, wiring or appliances, rarely, from a meters .
my new car, bought as pandemic started, Jan 2020, 250 miles on clock on first service, fault found, with moving part.3 year old now,2035 miles on clock, two more faults, !
rather refutes your suggestion that new is better and safer.
more things to go wrong on new cars, smart meters, etc, chances are therefore are multiplied.
I cannot understand why more on here do not freely admit that, this probably a scare tactic to force consumers to get a smart meter fitted by spurious means,so they don’t get fined by the Gov, but just espouse the same old mantra, that smart meters are the panacea to everything.
Why ?
The energy companies didn’t devise these meters, they did not want them,it was the Gov,on a whim, hence the fines .
just 

like the high speed railway, a vanity project.
costing a fortune, to be paid by the consumer, with little, or no benefit.
P.S.
I have a 40 year old hover mower, no box, works great, plenty moving parts, never serviced.
I am now on my 4th new petrol mower, all serviced annually. 

Don’t think anymore needs to be said .
new is not always better, rather the opposite .
if it ain’t broke, don’t fix it!

joesoap1264

Ps, my above post was in response to Ayr ,s post.

CSI_Yorkshire

Gerry1 said:

spireman said:

2. What are the disadvantages for customers with Smart meters?   Can they be cut off remotely on a whim?  Can they be manipulated by the energy company to increase charges?   How can the customer monitor usage against the billed usage?

Cut off ? Yes. You can be cut off remotely.  Not on a whim, but as a last resort if there's a serious energy shortage and rationing hasn't worked well enough.  Known as Load Shedding. 

Well that's just wrong.  Or at the absolute best it's massively misleading.

Load shedding exists, as was highly publicised this past winter, and has nothing at all to do with smart meters.  It's all done at the local substation level and has been for decades.

Adding a smart meter does not increase or decrease the chance, frequency or duration of load shedding affecting any individual.

edit: Oh, and joesoap1264 - anecdotes are not evidence.  And applying legislation (as has been pointed out to you on each of the threads) is not a scare tactic.