Troublesome Tenant , deposit scheme, etc.

Android07

Afternoon.

My sister is in a sticky situation.

She bought a 3 bedroom property and the intention was to sit on the property and let the value increase and eventually sell it after 10 years. She wanted to rent just enough so that this could cover the mortgage.

She rented two rooms to a couple and their teen son initially without a contract.

3 months later, she signed a tenancy agreement with them for 6 months after obtaining a Selective licensing license from the council. The tenancy agreement looks like this :  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13426229083

She accepted the deposit as '1 month's advance rent' and this was written in hand just above the deposit section on the agreement.

The tenant signed in presence of a witness/guarantor. She paid the deposit in cash.

Sis set the deposit aside but did not register it with a protection scheme.

After 6 months, they voluntarily said they would be leaving the next month but months have come and went and they have not left. After asking them sternly for a fixed leaving date in the presence of their guarantor, she agreed to a date but the very next day, she complained to the council that she was forcefully evicting them. The council has asked for documents and she is in the state of preparing them.

She has just now registered with a deposit protection scheme and paid the initial £20 or so fee. Prescribed information has not been provided to the tenant yet.

Meanwhile, over the course of last 6 months, the tenant has damaged the house by flooding the bathroom and that has affected the kitchen ceiling underneath. The bathroom ceiling was also full of mould. Sis has used buidlers to fix everything. It has also been two months since the tenant has stopped paying rent.The tenant also stopped paying bills after the tenancy agreeement ended. Instead, she duped my sis into putting all the bills in her name. My sis tried to impose the bills on the tenant but the tenant has been deducting bills from the rent and only paying the remainder in rent. So, now we have a situation where the tenant uses as much gas & electricity as they want and my sis has to pay their bills!

Furthermore, after the agreement ended, the tenant was unmable to pay the full rent and asked for an adjustment against the rent for month 7. This was agreed verbally and my sis adjusted accordingly. So, the deposit held should be lesser than before ( approx.half )

What can be done now?

1. Deposit -

Send tenant presribed infroamtion now?

OR

Send refund for remaining deposit by cheque and recorded delivery with an apology.

2. Bills -

Utility companies have advised to ask tenant to call them to take over bills but tenant has ingored this. A PAYG Smart meter installation has taken place but the utility company have messed up and are yet to send a key while the bill has been accumulating!

3. Rent arear - How to get this back? Contact a Debt collection agency?

4. What about changing license to HMO so that the 3rd room can be rented so that it offsets the loss by a bit from no rent being paid.

Thank you ever so much.

propertyrental

Android07 said:

Afternoon.

My sister is in a sticky situation.

She bought a 3 bedroom property and the intention was to sit on the property and let the value increase and eventually sell it after 10 years. She wanted to rent just enough so that this could cover the mortgage.
irrelevant

She rented two rooms to a couple and their teen son initially without a contract. of course there was a contract.  It was verbal. They got accommodation and in return she got rent. Contract.

3 months later, she signed a tenancy agreement with them for 6 months after obtaining a Selective licensing license from the council. The tenancy agreement looks like this :  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13426229083

She accepted the deposit as '1 month's advance rent' and this was written in hand just above the deposit section on the agreement. So no deposit, just rent in advance

The tenant signed in presence of a witness/guarantor. irrelevant
 She paid the deposit in cash.  but you say it was not a deposit - it was rent. Did she provide a receipt? What did it say?

Sis set the deposit aside but did not register it with a protection scheme. well since it was rent, no need to register it.

After 6 months, they voluntarily said they would be leaving the next month but months have come and went and they have not left.
did they serve notice toend the tenancy? If yes, what date served and what date to end?

After asking them sternly for a fixed leaving date in the presence of their guarantor, she agreed to a date but the very next day, she complained to the council that she was forcefully evicting them. The council has asked for documents and she is in the state of preparing them.
what documents have the council requested?

She has just now registered with a deposit protection scheme and paid the initial £20 or so fee. Prescribed information has not been provided to the tenant yet.
If it IS a deposit (unlikely) the T can claim the 3 times deposit penalty for non registration and no PI within 30 days.

Meanwhile, over the course of last 6 months, the tenant has damaged the house by flooding the bathroom and that has affected the kitchen ceiling underneath. The bathroom ceiling was also full of mould. Sis has used buidlers to fix everything.
What did her insurers do? How did the Ts 'flood the bathroom? If negligent, sue the Ts.
 
 It has also been two months since the tenant has stopped paying rent.
Has she served a S8 G8 Notice? Dates?

The tenant also stopped paying bills after the tenancy agreeement ended. Instead, she duped my sis into putting all the bills in her name. My sis tried to impose the bills on the tenant but the tenant has been deducting bills from the rent and only paying the remainder in rent. So, now we have a situation where the tenant uses as much gas & electricity as they want and my sis has to pay their bills!
What have the utility Cos done/said when your sis explained she is not the occupant and not responsible for the bils?
How did the T 'dupe' your sister?

Furthermore, after the agreement ended, ?the agreement did not end. The fixed term ended. The tenancy continued the tenant was unmable to pay the full rent and asked for an adjustment against the rent for month 7. This was agreed verbally and my sis adjusted accordingly. why?
So, the deposit held should be lesser than before ( approx.half )
Why? Even if the rent was reduced that doesnot affect the deposit. Though I'm still not clear there IS a deposit.

What can be done now?

1. Deposit -

Send tenant presribed infroamtion now? 

OR

Send refund for remaining deposit by cheque and recorded delivery with an apology.
Write to T explaining no deposit was taken. Enclose copy of the tenancy agreement highlighting the words "1 month's advance rent'"

2. Bills -

Utility companies have advised to ask tenant to call them to take over bills but tenant has ingored this. A PAYG Smart meter installation has taken place but the utility company have messed up and are yet to send a key while the bill has been accumulating!
Write to utility Co giving T names and denying liablility

3. Rent arear - How to get this back? Contact a Debt collection agency?
Serve S8 G8. Evict. Claim rent arrears at same time as courtpossession hearing.

4. What about changing license to HMO so that the 3rd room can be rented so that it offsets the loss by a bit from no rent being paid.
Mad. Your sister is totally out of her depth and should forget about re-letting.

Sell the property.

Read the stickie.

Soot2006

I am confused. Is your sister also living in the house or did she rent out the whole property as per a normal tenancy?  You say she rented out "two rooms" of her 3-bed house and seem the view the 3rd bedroom as separate to this ...  But then the utilities hoo-hah suggests she isn't in occupation ... "out of her depth" and "what a mess" sounds unfortunately correct, but you've had some good advice in the previous post. Well done for helping your sister to get it sorted out. Hopefully this can be done relatively pain free by wising up a bit.

Android07

propertyrental said:

Android07 said:

Afternoon.

My sister is in a sticky situation.

She bought a 3 bedroom property and the intention was to sit on the property and let the value increase and eventually sell it after 10 years. She wanted to rent just enough so that this could cover the mortgage.
irrelevant

She rented two rooms to a couple and their teen son initially without a contract. of course there was a contract.  It was verbal. They got accommodation and in return she got rent. Contract.

3 months later, she signed a tenancy agreement with them for 6 months after obtaining a Selective licensing license from the council. The tenancy agreement looks like this :  https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/13426229083

She accepted the deposit as '1 month's advance rent' and this was written in hand just above the deposit section on the agreement. So no deposit, just rent in advance

:)Yes

The tenant signed in presence of a witness/guarantor. irrelevant
 She paid the deposit in cash.  but you say it was not a deposit - it was rent. Did she provide a receipt? What did it say?

Apologies. Even I am getting confused now! Haha Yes, it was rent. No reciept was provided. This is what the agreement looks like ( red text is written by hand on the real agreement )

https://i.postimg.cc/XvFdszMV/mse.png

Sis set the deposit aside but did not register it with a protection scheme. well since it was rent, no need to register it.

:)Thank you.

After 6 months, they voluntarily said they would be leaving the next month but months have come and went and they have not left.
did they serve notice toend the tenancy? If yes, what date served and what date to end?

No.

After asking them sternly for a fixed leaving date in the presence of their guarantor, she agreed to a date but the very next day, she complained to the council that she was forcefully evicting them. The council has asked for documents and she is in the state of preparing them.
what documents have the council requested?

Written statement of terms of occupancy

Gas safety cert

Fire alarm/emergency lighting testc ert

EICR

Electrical appliance test cert

Property inspection records

Pest control treatment records

Tenancy deposit scheme paperwork

Tenancy management arrangements

Copies of reference for occupants

Name and details of occupnat

She has just now registered with a deposit protection scheme and paid the initial £20 or so fee. Prescribed information has not been provided to the tenant yet.
If it IS a deposit (unlikely) the T can claim the 3 times deposit penalty for non registration and no PI within 30 days.

:)No, it wasn't.

Meanwhile, over the course of last 6 months, the tenant has damaged the house by flooding the bathroom and that has affected the kitchen ceiling underneath. The bathroom ceiling was also full of mould. Sis has used buidlers to fix everything.
What did her insurers do? How did the Ts 'flood the bathroom? If negligent, sue the Ts.
She fixed it from her own pocket without informing insurers

 It has also been two months since the tenant has stopped paying rent.
Has she served a S8 G8 Notice? Dates?

:)No

The tenant also stopped paying bills after the tenancy agreeement ended. Instead, she duped my sis into putting all the bills in her name. My sis tried to impose the bills on the tenant but the tenant has been deducting bills from the rent and only paying the remainder in rent. So, now we have a situation where the tenant uses as much gas & electricity as they want and my sis has to pay their bills!
What have the utility Cos done/said when your sis explained she is not the occupant and not responsible for the bils?

:)They said tell tenant to phone us

How did the T 'dupe' your sister?

:)Tenants should be paying bills, not the landlord, right?

Furthermore, after the agreement ended, ?the agreement did not end. The fixed term ended. The tenancy continued the tenant was unmable to pay the full rent and asked for an adjustment against the rent for month 7. This was agreed verbally and my sis adjusted accordingly. why?
So, the deposit held should be lesser than before ( approx.half )
Why? Even if the rent was reduced that doesnot affect the deposit. Though I'm still not clear there IS a deposit.

You are right, no deposit.

What can be done now?

1. Deposit -

Send tenant presribed infroamtion now? 

OR

Send refund for remaining deposit by cheque and recorded delivery with an apology.
Write to T explaining no deposit was taken. Enclose copy of the tenancy agreement highlighting the words "1 month's advance rent'"

:)Thanks.

2. Bills -

Utility companies have advised to ask tenant to call them to take over bills but tenant has ingored this. A PAYG Smart meter installation has taken place but the utility company have messed up and are yet to send a key while the bill has been accumulating!
Write to utility Co giving T names and denying liablility

:)Thanks.

3. Rent arear - How to get this back? Contact a Debt collection agency?
Serve S8 G8. Evict. Claim rent arrears at same time as courtpossession hearing.

:)How? Small claims court or use debt collection agency?

4. What about changing license to HMO so that the 3rd room can be rented so that it offsets the loss by a bit from no rent being paid.
Mad. Your sister is totally out of her depth and should forget about re-letting.

Sell the property.

Read the stickie.

Please see above my replies with smilies.

Android07

Soot2006 said:

I am confused. Is your sister also living in the house or did she rent out the whole property as per a normal tenancy?  You say she rented out "two rooms" of her 3-bed house and seem the view the 3rd bedroom as separate to this ...  But then the utilities hoo-hah suggests she isn't in occupation ... "out of her depth" and "what a mess" sounds unfortunately correct, but you've had some good advice in the previous post. Well done for helping your sister to get it sorted out. Hopefully this can be done relatively pain free by wising up a bit.

No, she was not living in the house. Whole property was not rented out. The 3rd room was and is still under lock and key.

CSI_Yorkshire

Android07 said:

propertyrental said:

3. Rent arear - How to get this back? Contact a Debt collection agency?
Serve S8 G8. Evict. Claim rent arrears at same time as courtpossession hearing.

:)How? Small claims court or use debt collection agency?

Please see above my replies with smilies.

"At the same time" here also includes "in the same place".

Sarah1Mitty2

Very bad idea in this economic environment I think, the problem tenant isn`t going to help either, evict and sell would be my advice, then look at money market funds and a balanced diversified stock market portfolio for income.

BobT36

Troublesome landlord too by the looks, completely incompetent. Imagine dealing with someone running a business like that, but from a CUSTOMER's perspective. 

Do landlords really buy tenancy agreements from ebay because they can't be arsed to download or create one themselves?....

theartfullodger

Been a landlord since 2000.  In favour of tenants, agents and landlords obeying the law .  Sister did not adhere to law over deposits:  Law passed by parliament twice, second time to give overworked landlords more than twice time to do the paperwork.  IMHO tenant is not troublesome, someone else is 

As part of property locked and excluded from tenant, landlord is responsible for council tax , not tenant - see 1992 Council Tax law or regulation.

Has sister done any education in how to be a landlord, please?  If not, 'umbly suggest she does so, soon, for here own sake -.  Yes of course we all make mistakes, I made stupid expensive mistake when I started as a landlord - so started on education: Still learning, still making mistakes. 

Best wishes to all involved.

user1977

theartfullodger said:

As part of property locked and excluded from tenant, landlord is responsible for council tax , not tenant.

I'm not sure that's the case if it's merely part of the property being declared out of bounds and used for e.g. storage of the landlord's precious things (as opposed to the landlord coming in and sharing the house with the tenants in a more active sense).

We've had previous threads here discussing e.g. the attic being declared not for tenant use - would that change the council tax?

theartfullodger

user1977 said:

theartfullodger said:

As part of property locked and excluded from tenant, landlord is responsible for council tax , not tenant.

I'm not sure that's the case if it's merely part of the property being declared out of bounds and used for e.g. storage of the landlord's precious things (as opposed to the landlord coming in and sharing the house with the tenants in a more active sense).

We've had previous threads here discussing e.g. the attic being declared not for tenant use - would that change the council tax?

See...
https://www.propertyhawk.co.uk/magazines/council-tax-who-pays/

"" 

HMO landlords and council tax

Landlords that own a property that has been classed an HMO property are liable under the Council Tax Regulations for the payment of council tax due on the building.

As many landlords are aware; there are several definitions of what constitutes an HMO. The confusing aspect is that they are very different. This means that a property that could not be considered an HMO under the planning regulations may constitute one under the Housing Act 2004 and thereby require a licence.

The Government did remove the requirement for landlords to make a planning application for all properties let to three or more tenants.

What is a HMO for council tax purposes?

For Council Tax purposes the definition as to whether a property is classed as a HMO for Council Tax purposes is set out within the HMO the Council Tax (Liability for Owners) Regulations 1992.

For the purpose of Council Tax liability, a ‘House in Multiple Occupation’ is:

built or adapted for occupation by people, but who don’t live as a single household.

Or

a dwelling which is occupied by people who have a tenancy or licence to live in only part of the a dwelling, or who pays rent or a license fee for only part of the dwelling. """