Troublesome Tenant , deposit scheme, etc.

Android07

RAS said:

OK, so both the LL and the tenant are making the law up as they go along. 

At the very least, unless she really understands tenancy law for her specific country, your sister needs professional help to remove the tenants.

When you says the tenants "arrived as students", do you mean that they were/are foreign students? So might not be au fait with UK tenancy law and might also be picking up advice from others who don't know UK law?

It is possible to sign an AST just for a room in a house as well as for a house share (all the tenants are liable for the full rent not just their room); that's the definition of an HMO, basically. What exactly did your sister agree to rent to them as it's not clear from your OP.

What exactly is the role of the witness/ guarantor? If they ARE a guarantor (signed and witnessed as a deed), why has the LL not pursued the guarantor for the unpaid rent?

If the LL has not yet provided the prescribed information to the tenants, the S21 will fail. If the tenants weren't given the up to date "How to Rent" booklet, the S21 will fail. Does she have the gas and electricity checks, and has she given copies to the tenant? Read the link provided.

This is such a mess that the LL is best getting proper expensive legal support to remove the tenants. It's going to take time and money to even get the tenancy regularised so effective notice can be given. And possibly a year to remove the tenants once that happens.

And then sell the property ASAP and hope to cover the costs.

Tenants arrived as foreign students. ( Student with dependants ). They now think they know the law and are QC's!

The rent agreement was just for two rooms.

The witness was literally just a witness. His name is on the tenancy agreement alongwith his signature. On this old AST form, the guarantor bit is missing. So, he is not really a guarantor. He has washed his hands off the whole mess and has said that he does not want to be bothered. He was the one who rang up my sis initially about the property and introduced the tenants to her.

All documents ( Prescribed information, Gas safetty checks, ECR, etc. ) have been provided to the tenant prior to the serving of S21. These have been emailed and also handed in person.

Android07

Should a Section 8 be issued as well? Full rent has not bene paid for the last four months!

_Penny_Dreadful

Android07 said:

Should a Section 8 be issued as well? Full rent has not bene paid for the last four months!

Your sister can issue a Section 8 using ground 8.  Whilst a lack of PI won't cause a Section 8 to fail a lack of repairs can cause it to fail.  It is not unknown for tenants to cite a property being in poor condition as a way of dragging out the Section 8 process.

Android07 said:

Tenants arrived as foreign students. ( Student with dependants ). They now think they know the law and are QC's!

The rent agreement was just for two rooms.

The witness was literally just a witness. His name is on the tenancy agreement alongwith his signature. On this old AST form, the guarantor bit is missing. So, he is not really a guarantor. He has washed his hands off the whole mess and has said that he does not want to be bothered. He was the one who rang up my sis initially about the property and introduced the tenants to her.

All documents ( Prescribed information, Gas safetty checks, ECR, etc. ) have been provided to the tenant prior to the serving of S21. These have been emailed and also handed in person.

What about the deposit?  Was the returned to the tenants prior to the Section 21 being issued?  Were the tenants issued with a valid GSC at the commencement of the tenancy?  It is a bit of a grey area as to whether the failure of the landlord to provide a valid GSC at the commencement of the tenancy can ever be corrected by serving a valid GSC before issuing a Section 21.  See, "The Trecarrel Conundrum," for more information: https://nearlylegal.co.uk/2020/06/the-trecarrell-conundrum/

Whilst it is possible for a landlord to carry out the whole Section 21 and Section 8 processes themselves your sister does sound very out of her depth.  It might be time for her to engage the services of a solicitor who specialises in tenancy law or at least for her to join a landlord association such as NRLA.

Android07

_Penny_Dreadful said:

Android07 said:

Should a Section 8 be issued as well? Full rent has not bene paid for the last four months!

Your sister can issue a Section 8 using ground 8.  Whilst a lack of PI won't cause a Section 8 to fail a lack of repairs can cause it to fail.  It is not unknown for tenants to cite a property being in poor condition as a way of dragging out the Section 8 process.

Android07 said:

Tenants arrived as foreign students. ( Student with dependants ). They now think they know the law and are QC's!

The rent agreement was just for two rooms.

The witness was literally just a witness. His name is on the tenancy agreement alongwith his signature. On this old AST form, the guarantor bit is missing. So, he is not really a guarantor. He has washed his hands off the whole mess and has said that he does not want to be bothered. He was the one who rang up my sis initially about the property and introduced the tenants to her.

All documents ( Prescribed information, Gas safetty checks, ECR, etc. ) have been provided to the tenant prior to the serving of S21. These have been emailed and also handed in person.

What about the deposit?  Was the returned to the tenants prior to the Section 21 being issued?  Were the tenants issued with a valid GSC at the commencement of the tenancy?  It is a bit of a grey area as to whether the failure of the landlord to provide a valid GSC at the commencement of the tenancy can ever be corrected by serving a valid GSC before issuing a Section 21.  See, "The Trecarrel Conundrum," for more information: https://nearlylegal.co.uk/2020/06/the-trecarrell-conundrum/

Whilst it is possible for a landlord to carry out the whole Section 21 and Section 8 processes themselves your sister does sound very out of her depth.  It might be time for her to engage the services of a solicitor who specialises in tenancy law or at least for her to join a landlord association such as NRLA.

No deposit was taken. Hence, not deposit was returned or will be returned. I have advised her to see a solicitor if the tenants refuse to move when the two months of Section 21 notice is up.

Schwarzwald

Android07 said:

RAS said:

OK, so both the LL and the tenant are making the law up as they go along. 

At the very least, unless she really understands tenancy law for her specific country, your sister needs professional help to remove the tenants.

When you says the tenants "arrived as students", do you mean that they were/are foreign students? So might not be au fait with UK tenancy law and might also be picking up advice from others who don't know UK law?

It is possible to sign an AST just for a room in a house as well as for a house share (all the tenants are liable for the full rent not just their room); that's the definition of an HMO, basically. What exactly did your sister agree to rent to them as it's not clear from your OP.

What exactly is the role of the witness/ guarantor? If they ARE a guarantor (signed and witnessed as a deed), why has the LL not pursued the guarantor for the unpaid rent?

If the LL has not yet provided the prescribed information to the tenants, the S21 will fail. If the tenants weren't given the up to date "How to Rent" booklet, the S21 will fail. Does she have the gas and electricity checks, and has she given copies to the tenant? Read the link provided.

This is such a mess that the LL is best getting proper expensive legal support to remove the tenants. It's going to take time and money to even get the tenancy regularised so effective notice can be given. And possibly a year to remove the tenants once that happens.

And then sell the property ASAP and hope to cover the costs.

The witness was literally just a witness. His name is on the tenancy agreement alongwith his signature. On this old AST form, the guarantor bit is missing. So, he is not really a guarantor. He has washed his hands off the whole mess and has said that he does not want to be bothered. He was the one who rang up my sis initially about the property and introduced the tenants to her.

I find your use of words very ambiguous.
so is he a party to the tenancy agreement, ie as a tenant and therefore potentially liable for any claims and/or missing rent?
or is he a pure signature witness - similar to a deed - with very little relevance to this at all?
questionable at all then why he was asked to witness the agreement then if not acting as a guarantor.

jj_43

Have you thought about selling the property into auction with all these outstanding issues you can walk away straight away and concentrate on selling the property. Get a professional landlord to deal with this. 

Android07

Schwarzwald said:

Android07 said:

RAS said:

OK, so both the LL and the tenant are making the law up as they go along. 

At the very least, unless she really understands tenancy law for her specific country, your sister needs professional help to remove the tenants.

When you says the tenants "arrived as students", do you mean that they were/are foreign students? So might not be au fait with UK tenancy law and might also be picking up advice from others who don't know UK law?

It is possible to sign an AST just for a room in a house as well as for a house share (all the tenants are liable for the full rent not just their room); that's the definition of an HMO, basically. What exactly did your sister agree to rent to them as it's not clear from your OP.

What exactly is the role of the witness/ guarantor? If they ARE a guarantor (signed and witnessed as a deed), why has the LL not pursued the guarantor for the unpaid rent?

If the LL has not yet provided the prescribed information to the tenants, the S21 will fail. If the tenants weren't given the up to date "How to Rent" booklet, the S21 will fail. Does she have the gas and electricity checks, and has she given copies to the tenant? Read the link provided.

This is such a mess that the LL is best getting proper expensive legal support to remove the tenants. It's going to take time and money to even get the tenancy regularised so effective notice can be given. And possibly a year to remove the tenants once that happens.

And then sell the property ASAP and hope to cover the costs.

The witness was literally just a witness. His name is on the tenancy agreement alongwith his signature. On this old AST form, the guarantor bit is missing. So, he is not really a guarantor. He has washed his hands off the whole mess and has said that he does not want to be bothered. He was the one who rang up my sis initially about the property and introduced the tenants to her.

I find your use of words very ambiguous.
so is he a party to the tenancy agreement, ie as a tenant and therefore potentially liable for any claims and/or missing rent?
or is he a pure signature witness - similar to a deed - with very little relevance to this at all?
questionable at all then why he was asked to witness the agreement then if not acting as a guarantor.

He is just a signature witness.

jj_43 said:

Have you thought about selling the property into auction with all these outstanding issues you can walk away straight away and concentrate on selling the property. Get a professional landlord to deal with this. 

The property is in an area where house prices are going up fast. In 2 years alone, the property's value has gone up by £100,000!

Android07

She has now approached a solicitor as the two months' notice is coming to an end and the tenants show no intention of leaving. The solicitor has advised to wait till se goes to court before asking for rent arrears. Is this correct advice?

thegreenone

Please tell me they had use of the kitchen and, more importantly, the bathroom in addition to the two bedrooms.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

OP has your sister thought about giving them 5 grand to leave tomorrow, keys swapped for the cash?