Energy price cap from July 2023 (merged)

mmmmikey

....an observation on E7 rates. I've looked at the Ofgem price cap for east midlands for Apr-Jun and Jul-Sep and the EDF E7 tariff cards for Apr-Jun. EDF publish pre-EPG rates and "what you actually pay" rates (i.e. with the EPG applied).

(1) Looking at the Ofgem caps for Apr & Jul and taking out the SC element, the cost of the energy itself has gone down by 42%

(2) If EDF maintained the balance beween their pre-EPG day and night rates and reduced them both by 42% then the rates would go down to 34.37p/kWh and 19.75p/kWh respectively

(3) The current EPG rates are 42.34p/kWh and 16.93p/kWh

(4) So it's quite possible that although the weighted average rate will go down in line with the cap, it could be that this will favour day users rather than night users, and night users could actually see an increase in their bills

Of course we don't know what EDF will actually do, but it does highlight the importance of focusing on the new rates and deciding whether E7 is still a good option for you.

mmmmikey

MikeJXE said:

mmmmikey said:

@MikeJXE - I know the predictions were that SCs would go up but when I look at the Ofgem rates they appear not to be. Am I missing something here? What will you be paying more for? Thanks, Mike.

According to the above rates my standing charges are up for both electric and gas while kWh is down slightly

Thanks - that's the bit that is confusing me as when I look at the Ofgem rates on their website they appear to be the same. Wasn't mean to question your figures, I know from previous posts that you keep a close eye on this, I just can't reconcile what you're saying with what I'm seing on the Ofgem website. Happy to accept I'm missing something but not sure what it is.

Specifically, I'm comparing the SC rates here:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/default-tariff-cap-level-1-april-2023-30-june-2023

....with the SC rates here:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/default-tariff-cap-level-1-july-2023-30-september-2023

MattMattMattUK

The_Green_Hornet said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The_Green_Hornet said:

MattMattMattUK said:

The_Green_Hornet said:

MattMattMattUK said:

Chrysalis said:

There seems to be no political appetite for addressing SC sadly.  Unit rates and overall annual typical usage cost is what grabs the headlines.

Why does the Standing Charge to be "addressed"? It is there to cover specific costs, there is a legitimate reason for it to be charged as it is, why should it be "addressed"?

Greg Jackson, CEO and Founder of Octopus Energy says:

“High standing charges are egregious. This £40m package is the beginning of our battle to bring them down. Far too many costs have been loaded onto standing charges - from grid and distribution charges to failed suppliers. These charges just make it more difficult for hard-pressed customers to save money through efficiency and Octopus is making a stand to change that.”

https://octopus.energy/press/octopus-takes-stand-against-standing-charges-with-40m-package/

Marketing statements to the media to appeal to the uneducated public do not constitute a valid analysis of the costs and merits of the billing structure. 

You are absolutely correct. It is much better to listen to the uneducated public posting anonymously on internet forums,

Or maybe look at the factual analysis published by Ofgem and research bodies. You can tell the post from Jackson is a marketing statement because he does not actually propose how the costs from standing charges should be recovered if they are not on the standing charge, and when pressed in interviews he has declined to answer that part, only that they should be lower. 

Again you are 100% correct. Ofgem is a a shining example of how an industry should be regulated for the benefit of its' customers. Allowing dozens of suppliers into the energy market without proper due diligence for the sole reason on introducing competition to break up the big 6 dominance was an absolute master stroke. 

The conditions under which Ofgem were required to grant licenses were set by legislation, they did and do not have discretion on that. Do I think Ofgem should be reformed to do better, absolutely? Does the fact that they are not perfect detract from fact based analysis? No.

MikeJXE

mmmmikey said:

MikeJXE said:

mmmmikey said:

@MikeJXE - I know the predictions were that SCs would go up but when I look at the Ofgem rates they appear not to be. Am I missing something here? What will you be paying more for? Thanks, Mike.

According to the above rates my standing charges are up for both electric and gas while kWh is down slightly

Thanks - that's the bit that is confusing me as when I look at the Ofgem rates on their website they appear to be the same. Wasn't mean to question your figures, I know from previous posts that you keep a close eye on this, I just can't reconcile what you're saying with what I'm seing on the Ofgem website. Happy to accept I'm missing something but not sure what it is.

Specifically, I'm comparing the SC rates here:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/default-tariff-cap-level-1-april-2023-30-june-2023

....with the SC rates here:

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/publications/default-tariff-cap-level-1-july-2023-30-september-2023

Detailed breakdown of the rates shown on this thread and my rates 

Electric kWh .30 my rates are .32 my usage is fairly constant summer/winter 11/12 kWh per week 

Gas kWh .08 my rates are .10 and vary depending on season, for 3/4 months from July I will use zero per week 

Standing charges are electric .53 mine are 48 and gas .29 and mine .27 

So whilst I will save approx .02 x 11 = 22p per week on electric it will be costing me .05 x 7 = 35p more per week on standing charge 

Also while I save approx .02 x 0 = zero per week on gas (I won't be using any for the next 4 months) it will be costing me .02 x 7 = 14p more per week on standing charge 

However there is a plus side if rates stay the same for a long period, (which I doubt)  I will be better off next winter when I use more and pay less per unit 

Swings and roundabouts 

molerat

Standing charges are not changing from the April rates.

Unit prices are decreasing, gas by 2.8p and single rate electric by 2.6p

They are the simple facts

Richard019

I know there's variation regionally in standing charge/unit price mix in terms of meeting the cap, and that there are genuine cost differences in supplying different areas, but can anyone explain why the electric standing charge in London is 43.92p but in North Wales/Mersey it's 68.84p? (screenshot just taken from the main site below).

That's more than 55% extra. Is it really that much more expensive to maintain things if an area is less densely populated? I was originally questioning the 11p a day difference between Southern Scotand and the North West where I didn't think there'd be much difference in the make up of the infrastructure, but then saw the 25p gap there

MattMattMattUK

Richard019 said:

I know there's variation regionally in standing charge/unit price mix in terms of meeting the cap, and that there are genuine cost differences in supplying different areas, but can anyone explain why the electric standing charge in London is 43.92p but in North Wales/Mersey it's 68.84p? (screenshot just taken from the main site below).

That's more than 55% extra. Is it really that much more expensive to maintain things if an area is less densely populated? I was originally questioning the 11p a day difference between Southern Scotand and the North West where I didn't think there'd be much difference in the make up of the infrastructure, but then saw the 25p gap there

A lot of it comes down to the number of grid connections per meter of cabling, London is an oddity due to population density, it is a fraction of the overall amount, transmission losses are lower, there are not transformers needed at remote locations only serving a few properties etc. 

CSI_Yorkshire

Yes, almost entirely network costs, in fact the network cost component of the NW&M charge (133.18) is bigger than the entire London standing charge (132.73) on the first chart I looked at.  No more than 1.60 difference in any other aspect. 

MikeJXE

molerat said:

Standing charges are not changing from the April rates.

Unit prices are decreasing, gas by 2.8p and single rate electric by 2.6p

They are the simple facts

Can you please show me the link to those simple facts 

molerat

MikeJXE said:

molerat said:

Standing charges are not changing from the April rates.

Unit prices are decreasing, gas by 2.8p and single rate electric by 2.6p

They are the simple facts

Can you please show me the link to those simple facts 

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-05/Default tariff cap level - 1 July 2023 - 30 September 2023.pdf

And the table derived from that, for DD payment, by PeterGr earlier in this thread

July 2023 - September 2023			Implied max. Rates
Region	G-SC p/day	G-p/kWh	E-SC p/day	E-p/kWh
North West	29.11	7.513	51.42	29.936
Northern	29.11	7.430	57.03	29.287
Yorkshire	29.11	7.439	55.60	29.263
Northern Scotland	29.11	7.463	58.98	29.969
Southern	29.11	7.607	49.60	30.295
Southern Scotland	29.11	7.463	61.67	29.667
N Wales and Mersey	29.11	7.544	61.82	31.096
London	29.11	7.511	38.18	31.191
South East	29.11	7.538	47.21	30.899
Eastern	29.11	7.399	43.66	30.720
East Midlands	29.11	7.379	50.31	29.482
Midlands	29.11	7.432	53.96	29.608
Southern Western	29.11	7.713	58.28	29.948
South Wales	29.11	7.664	53.83	30.223
Average Cap	29.11	7.507	52.97	30.113

Which you can compare with the April document

https://www.ofgem.gov.uk/sites/default/files/2023-02/Default tariff cap level - 1 April 2023 - 30 June 2023.pdf