Rights on a faulty car

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

(ie he genuinely doesn't know, even if you could argue that as a dealer he should know

The regs state:

(3) A commercial practice is unfair if—

(a)it contravenes the requirements of professional diligence; and

(b)it materially distorts or is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour of the average consumer with regard to the product.

So you'd have to apply 3(a) to what I've quoted from your post to answer either way.

@Manxman_in_exile you seem a pretty level headed person, if I said I've a car for sale, £5000 and you knew that was the going rate but when you look at it I said it needs the timing belt changed which is going to cost £400-£500 would you still buy it or would you either walk away/seek to knock the price down?

Or maybe my car is £5000 and it's £5750 everywhere else. You'd likely question why it's £750 cheaper but for me as a dealer I'd certainly have a reason and if that reason was the timing belt and I didn't state something I knew would you feel mislead?

The issue appears to be one of should the dealer have known, rather than should they have said (as if they did know they should say), giving the timing belt can have a visual inspection, the stiffness of the rubber can be inspected and there is a manufacture recommendation of when it should be changed which can be referenced against the service history, or lack off, I find it hard to believe the condition or lifespan of an important aspect of the engine shouldn't be brought to the consumer's attention. And after all, if the timing beld had been changed you can be sure the dealer would use this to boost either the value or saleability of the car.

born_again

The fact it is bought at distance, does not stop the purchaser from doing full due diligance.

Email copies of service history etc. Online check of MOT history etc. HPI for finance held or write off etc.

10 year old car with no advisories.. Good luck on finding one of them.

Not a car expert, then plenty of car forums to give advice on what to look for in specific cars. Just the same as Op found this forum for Consumer advice 😀

Many dealers rely on info on cars from manufactures specs. But remember 10 years ago. Cars often spent a long time in compounds awaiting a buyer, so a 10 Year old car may have been built 11 years ago, given this is a ford, maybe even longer. So that zero tax may fall into that area.

No service history for 2 years. Did dealer service the car before purchase in line with manufacture specs?

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80029167#Comment_80029167

I'm not sure what you mean by 'that's ambiguous and falls foul of 4.6' - if I sell you a car and you don't maintain it as you should and it fails then I think I can rightly say you haven't maintained it as you were supposed to, that's why it failed. Provided of course the maintenance would be relevant to the fault.

'You will need to replace this in the future in line with the manufacturer's guidance' is neither a roadworthiness issue nor in my opinion an issue of satisfactory quality at the time of sale.

If a trader knew a car wasn't maintained "as you were supposed to" they'd have to tell the customer that, if they did tell the customer that then simply saying "it wasn't maintained as you were supposed to" is too generic and unclear, they'd have to be specific.

This of course doesn't apply to a private sale.

This is probably another of those threads with lots of opinion and little legislation, hopefully the OP will have joy with the finance company.

Ditzy_Mitzy

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

(ie he genuinely doesn't know, even if you could argue that as a dealer he <strong>should</strong> know

The regs state:

(3) A commercial practice is unfair if—

(a)it contravenes the requirements of professional diligence; and

(b)it materially distorts or is likely to materially distort the economic behaviour of the average consumer with regard to the product.

So you'd have to apply 3(a) to what I've quoted from your post to answer either way.

@Manxman_in_exile you seem a pretty level headed person, if I said I've a car for sale, £5000 and you knew that was the going rate but when you look at it I said it needs the timing belt changed which is going to cost £400-£500 would you still buy it or would you either walk away/seek to knock the price down?

Or maybe my car is £5000 and it's £5750 everywhere else. You'd likely question why it's £750 cheaper but for me as a dealer I'd certainly have a reason and if that reason was the timing belt and I didn't state something I knew would you feel mislead?

The issue appears to be one of should the dealer have known, rather than should they have said (as if they did know they should say), giving the timing belt can have a visual inspection, the stiffness of the rubber can be inspected and there is a manufacture recommendation of when it should be changed which can be referenced against the service history, or lack off, I find it hard to believe the condition or lifespan of an important aspect of the engine shouldn't be brought to the consumer's attention. And after all, if the timing beld had been changed you can be sure the dealer would use this to boost either the value or saleability of the car.

I don't think it's that simple on a wet belt engine.  Inspection was fairly simple in the old days of the dry belt as, like you say, it was possible to remove a simple plastic timing cover and have a look at it.  The wet belt runs in oil and is, by the look of it, inside the engine.  Inspection would require a strip down of the rocker cover, at least, if not all ancillaries and the crankshaft pulley.  One may as well change the belt at that point!

Wonders of modern cars...  

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

https://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/discussion/comment/80029167#Comment_80029167

I'm not sure what you mean by 'that's ambiguous and falls foul of 4.6' - if I sell you a car and you don't maintain it as you should and it fails then I think I can rightly say you haven't maintained it as you were supposed to, that's why it failed. Provided of course the maintenance would be relevant to the fault.

'You will need to replace this in the future in line with the manufacturer's guidance' is neither a roadworthiness issue nor in my opinion an issue of satisfactory quality at the time of sale.

If a trader knew a car wasn't maintained "as you were supposed to" they'd have to tell the customer that, if they did tell the customer that then simply saying "it wasn't maintained as you were supposed to" is too generic and unclear, they'd have to be specific.

This of course doesn't apply to a private sale.

This is probably another of those threads with lots of opinion and little legislation, hopefully the OP will have joy with the finance company.

i think you've misunderstood my point, I'm talking about the buyer not maintaining it as they were supposed to - i.e not replacing the timing belt in line with manufacturer's recommended schedule after they've bought it. 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

tightauldgit said:

i think you've misunderstood my point, I'm talking about the buyer not maintaining it as they were supposed to - i.e not replacing the timing belt in line with manufacturer's recommended schedule after they've bought it. 

I did indeed  

It may be obvious to you that a timing belt has a lifespan but life is relative, if you read the motoring forum you should be expected to be able to build a car from scratch, read the DIY forum and you should be able to build a house from scratch, perhaps if you read the green fingered forum you should be able to farm enough food for a small town, some people are not mechanically minded at all and know zero about cars.

This isn't a private sale, there is no buyer beware, there is no "you should have asked" or researched what the manufacturer says. The legislation imposes that material information must be given by the trader and if it is omitted that is a prohibited practice.

The timing belt is an important part of the engine and it being at the end of it's life is material information.

Had the dealer told OP this and they didn't change the belt then yes of course that's the OP's problem.

Thanks @Dizzy_Ditzy useful info     

Wonka_2

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

tightauldgit said:

i think you've misunderstood my point, I'm talking about the buyer not maintaining it as they were supposed to - i.e not replacing the timing belt in line with manufacturer's recommended schedule after they've bought it. 

I did indeed  

It may be obvious to you that a timing belt has a lifespan but life is relative, if you read the motoring forum you should be expected to be able to build a car from scratch, read the DIY forum and you should be able to build a house from scratch, perhaps if you read the green fingered forum you should be able to farm enough food for a small town, some people are not mechanically minded at all and know zero about cars.

This isn't a private sale, there is no buyer beware, there is no "you should have asked" or researched what the manufacturer says. The legislation imposes that material information must be given by the trader and if it is omitted that is a prohibited practice.

The timing belt is an important part of the engine and it being at the end of it's life is material information.

Had the dealer told OP this and they didn't change the belt then yes of course that's the OP's problem.

Thanks @Dizzy_Ditzy useful info     

And back in the real world where do you draw the line on this ? Has anyone who's bought a 2nd hand car recently been given a briefing/breakdown on the likely work required in the next 1/2/3yrs by the dealer ??

My experience as a relatively savvy buyer of cars is I get the registration number and check previous MOT's (and HPI if appropriate), I ask to see the service book/receipts and check against in car computer if relevant, and I check a specialist forum/manufacturers site for the proper service intervals vs what's actually been carried out

If there are any queries I ask the dealer, via email, for clarity/confirmation - if still not clear then the purchase becomes dependent on clearing up the doubt e.g an Alfa (notorious for cam belt issues) where it was unclear whether it has previously been changed was fully serviced (inc cam belt change) before purchase  

In 20+ yrs I've never had a dealer voluntarily tell me that cam belt needs changing in x miles, or even that the next service will be a major one at £££ nor do the advertising sites make it even an option to provide the info

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Wonka_2 said:

And back in the real world where do you draw the line on this ? Has anyone who's bought a 2nd hand car recently been given a briefing/breakdown on the likely work required in the next 1/2/3yrs by the dealer ??

My experience as a relatively savvy buyer of cars is I get the registration number and check previous MOT's (and HPI if appropriate), I ask to see the service book/receipts and check against in car computer if relevant, and I check a specialist forum/manufacturers site for the proper service intervals vs what's actually been carried out

If there are any queries I ask the dealer, via email, for clarity/confirmation - if still not clear then the purchase becomes dependent on clearing up the doubt e.g an Alfa (notorious for cam belt issues) where it was unclear whether it has previously been changed was fully serviced (inc cam belt change) before purchase  

In 20+ yrs I've never had a dealer voluntarily tell me that cam belt needs changing in x miles, or even that the next service will be a major one at £££ nor do the advertising sites make it even an option to provide the info

I do agree with what you say, the recent thread on couriers goes some way to show that just because an industry has adopted and normalised a certain way of doing business that this doesn't necessarily take precedent over the legislation and these topics are all balance of probability with the side who can articulate their position best having a greater chance of success. 

Car before last that we purchased I asked if the belt had been changed "Oooo, that's a good question" came the reply, well of course it is because if that answer is no I'm not buying the car! I knew to ask but really any question a buyer should know to, or perhaps it would be be wise to, ask should be information the dealer is giving. 

As I say they'd be quick to mention something that's just been replaced as a selling point and a fair balance is to note common things that need to be replaced either because their condition is commonly assessed or there's some kind of manufacturer timeframe or recommendation to go by. 

tightauldgit

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Wonka_2 said:

And back in the real world where do you draw the line on this ? Has anyone who's bought a 2nd hand car recently been given a briefing/breakdown on the likely work required in the next 1/2/3yrs by the dealer ??

My experience as a relatively savvy buyer of cars is I get the registration number and check previous MOT's (and HPI if appropriate), I ask to see the service book/receipts and check against in car computer if relevant, and I check a specialist forum/manufacturers site for the proper service intervals vs what's actually been carried out

If there are any queries I ask the dealer, via email, for clarity/confirmation - if still not clear then the purchase becomes dependent on clearing up the doubt e.g an Alfa (notorious for cam belt issues) where it was unclear whether it has previously been changed was fully serviced (inc cam belt change) before purchase  

In 20+ yrs I've never had a dealer voluntarily tell me that cam belt needs changing in x miles, or even that the next service will be a major one at £££ nor do the advertising sites make it even an option to provide the info

I do agree with what you say, the recent thread on couriers goes some way to show that just because an industry has adopted and normalised a certain way of doing business that this doesn't necessarily take precedent over the legislation and these topics are all balance of probability with the side who can articulate their position best having a greater chance of success. 

Car before last that we purchased I asked if the belt had been changed "Oooo, that's a good question" came the reply, well of course it is because if that answer is no I'm not buying the car! I knew to ask but really any question a buyer should know to, or perhaps it would be be wise to, ask should be information the dealer is giving. 

As I say they'd be quick to mention something that's just been replaced as a selling point and a fair balance is to note common things that need to be replaced either because their condition is commonly assessed or there's some kind of manufacturer timeframe or recommendation to go by. 

But there does have to be some line drawn, right?

Buyer: HELLO!!! I'VE HAD MY CAR A WEEK AND IT'S STOPPED WORKING!!!!! I DEMAND A REFUND!

Seller: Oh, I'm sorry to hear that. What's the problem?

Buyer: IT JUST STOPPED! IT WON'T GO! 

Seller: Oh! Do you want to bring it in and we'll take a look at it? 

Buyer: BUT IT WON'T GO!!!! JUST GIVE ME MY MONEY BACK!!!

Seller: Did you put petrol in it? 

Buyer: YOU DIDN'T TELL ME I HAD TO PUT PETROL IN IT!!!!!!! 

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Umm, aren’t all cars advertised as being petrol, diesel, hybrid, electric?