Excessive energy bill - e-on (sainbury's fixed tarrif until 2023) - please advise best steps

matt_drummer

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

laidbackgjr said:

But your range is less than 1 mile per kw which is very poor, should be more like 3 or 4 miles per kw.

Not from a plug in hybrid.

They are a compromise and not very efficient.

They can be, but it depends on how one uses them, as with most.

matt_drummer said:

It also sounds like this battery is seriously degraded, these type of batteries lifetime is based on charging cycles and how heavily they are charged and discharged.

It could be, or that the car us in the wrong mode, or that the poster misunderstood the charging and was thinking it was a full charge every time rather than just topping up.

matt_drummer said:

I charge my Tesla twice a month to 80%, if you charge a hybrid every day its battery will last at best fourteen times less than my car but in reality it will probably last even less time.

I average just over 4 miles per Kwh in 2 years with my Tesla, I get six to seven miles per Kwh in the good weather.

That is a car with a 60-100kWh rated battery in one of the most advanced electric road cars, it is always going to be at the top end of electric performance. It also carries a proportionately higher cost.

matt_drummer said:

Plug in hybrids are a silly idea, the worst of both worlds.

They have their place, those who often do sub 30 miles a day but need the flexibility of longer journeys and without the cost of a fully electric car. With a PHEV I could commute for free (charge at work) but have the ability to use the petrol engine for longer journeys I could get something perfectly adequate for £25k, but for a Tesla I would be looking at £50k+.

My Tesla can do longer journeys with ease.

If somebody generally does less than 30 miles a day what is the point of carrying around a petrol engine that you don't use.

I would imagine my Tesla cost less than the Porsche and will out perform it in every way.

Of course, if somebody wanted the Porsche, it's fine with me, but you could never claim that it was an efficient mode of transport.

The battery in that Porsche will be shot in less than five years if it is charged every day, 1,500 charging cycles will last just over four years, it's the same with any plug in hybrid.

Electric cars with decent range and performance are available at similar costs to average family hatchbacks.

I disagree completely, there is no place for plug in hybrids, they are just inefficient compared to pure petrol or pure electric cars.

MattMattMattUK

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

laidbackgjr said:

But your range is less than 1 mile per kw which is very poor, should be more like 3 or 4 miles per kw.

Not from a plug in hybrid.

They are a compromise and not very efficient.

They can be, but it depends on how one uses them, as with most.

matt_drummer said:

It also sounds like this battery is seriously degraded, these type of batteries lifetime is based on charging cycles and how heavily they are charged and discharged.

It could be, or that the car us in the wrong mode, or that the poster misunderstood the charging and was thinking it was a full charge every time rather than just topping up.

matt_drummer said:

I charge my Tesla twice a month to 80%, if you charge a hybrid every day its battery will last at best fourteen times less than my car but in reality it will probably last even less time.

I average just over 4 miles per Kwh in 2 years with my Tesla, I get six to seven miles per Kwh in the good weather.

That is a car with a 60-100kWh rated battery in one of the most advanced electric road cars, it is always going to be at the top end of electric performance. It also carries a proportionately higher cost.

matt_drummer said:

Plug in hybrids are a silly idea, the worst of both worlds.

They have their place, those who often do sub 30 miles a day but need the flexibility of longer journeys and without the cost of a fully electric car. With a PHEV I could commute for free (charge at work) but have the ability to use the petrol engine for longer journeys I could get something perfectly adequate for £25k, but for a Tesla I would be looking at £50k+.

My Tesla can do longer journeys with ease.

If somebody generally does less than 30 miles a day what is the point of carrying around a petrol engine that you don't use.

Largely because, at least in my case my commute is around 30 miles, but once a week I do 60-100 miles, 2-3 times a month I do 100-200 miles and every two months I do more than 200 miles, although more in the summer. If I were to buy a PHEV I could do that with one vehicle costing £20-25k, to do that with an electric car would require me to spend £50k+.

matt_drummer said:

I would imagine my Tesla cost less than the Porsche and will out perform it in every way.

Of course, if somebody wanted the Porsche, it's fine with me, but you could never claim that it was an efficient mode of transport.

I am not having a mid life crisis or trying to compensate so I have no need to buy a Porsche, neither could anyone claim their ICE cars are efficient apart from at separating people from money.

matt_drummer said:

The battery in that Porsche will be shot in less than five years if it is charged every day, 1,500 charging cycles will last just over four years, it's the same with any plug in hybrid.

Many will be good for longer than that because they will not be subject to those kinds of deep cycling, though it will be an expensive issue for some.

matt_drummer said:

Electric cars with decent range and performance are available at similar costs to average family hatchbacks.

I disagree completely, there is no place for plug in hybrids, they are just inefficient compared to pure petrol or pure electric cars.

If I wanted an electric car to meet my needs I would be looking at a Model 3 or similar, a £50k+ cost, or I could go down the PHEV route, commute for free and spend £20-25k, whilst a similar petrol would be around £5k cheaper it would mean I would incur a cost of commuting. In another 2-5 years when my income has fully recovered and I have bought a house I will likely look to buy an electric car, likely a Model 3 or potentially an S if things go well and it is towards the end of that timeframe, but for the moment there are no EVs that tick all the boxes in terms usage and TCO.

matt_drummer

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

MattMattMattUK said:

matt_drummer said:

laidbackgjr said:

But your range is less than 1 mile per kw which is very poor, should be more like 3 or 4 miles per kw.

Not from a plug in hybrid.

They are a compromise and not very efficient.

They can be, but it depends on how one uses them, as with most.

matt_drummer said:

It also sounds like this battery is seriously degraded, these type of batteries lifetime is based on charging cycles and how heavily they are charged and discharged.

It could be, or that the car us in the wrong mode, or that the poster misunderstood the charging and was thinking it was a full charge every time rather than just topping up.

matt_drummer said:

I charge my Tesla twice a month to 80%, if you charge a hybrid every day its battery will last at best fourteen times less than my car but in reality it will probably last even less time.

I average just over 4 miles per Kwh in 2 years with my Tesla, I get six to seven miles per Kwh in the good weather.

That is a car with a 60-100kWh rated battery in one of the most advanced electric road cars, it is always going to be at the top end of electric performance. It also carries a proportionately higher cost.

matt_drummer said:

Plug in hybrids are a silly idea, the worst of both worlds.

They have their place, those who often do sub 30 miles a day but need the flexibility of longer journeys and without the cost of a fully electric car. With a PHEV I could commute for free (charge at work) but have the ability to use the petrol engine for longer journeys I could get something perfectly adequate for £25k, but for a Tesla I would be looking at £50k+.

My Tesla can do longer journeys with ease.

If somebody generally does less than 30 miles a day what is the point of carrying around a petrol engine that you don't use.

Largely because, at least in my case my commute is around 30 miles, but once a week I do 60-100 miles, 2-3 times a month I do 100-200 miles and every two months I do more than 200 miles, although more in the summer. If I were to buy a PHEV I could do that with one vehicle costing £20-25k, to do that with an electric car would require me to spend £50k+.

matt_drummer said:

I would imagine my Tesla cost less than the Porsche and will out perform it in every way.

Of course, if somebody wanted the Porsche, it's fine with me, but you could never claim that it was an efficient mode of transport.

I am not having a mid life crisis or trying to compensate so I have no need to buy a Porsche, neither could anyone claim their ICE cars are efficient apart from at separating people from money.

matt_drummer said:

The battery in that Porsche will be shot in less than five years if it is charged every day, 1,500 charging cycles will last just over four years, it's the same with any plug in hybrid.

Many will be good for longer than that because they will not be subject to those kinds of deep cycling, though it will be an expensive issue for some.

matt_drummer said:

Electric cars with decent range and performance are available at similar costs to average family hatchbacks.

I disagree completely, there is no place for plug in hybrids, they are just inefficient compared to pure petrol or pure electric cars.

If I wanted an electric car to meet my needs I would be looking at a Model 3 or similar, a £50k+ cost, or I could go down the PHEV route, commute for free and spend £20-25k, whilst a similar petrol would be around £5k cheaper it would mean I would incur a cost of commuting. In another 2-5 years when my income has fully recovered and I have bought a house I will likely look to buy an electric car, likely a Model 3 or potentially an S if things go well and it is towards the end of that timeframe, but for the moment there are no EVs that tick all the boxes in terms usage and TCO.

I didn't realise we were talking about you, I thought this was about the OP.

An MG4 would cover your requirements at the costs you quote.

The battery in a phev will do a similar amount of charge cycles to a full electric vehicle. In electric only mode the battery in the phev will be finished 10 to 20 times sooner than the battery in the full ev. It's a fact.

If you don't use the battery in the phev to prolong its life, you may as well get a petrol car.

If you drive fully in electric mode, just get an electric car.

That's my advice to the average person and not one person in particular.

Although all cars cost money, it is a fact that some are more efficient to own than others, both in terms of energy consumption and money.

Finally, the cost of our cars is the difference between what we buy them for and what we sell them for, not all cars depreciate at the same rate. A higher initial outlay does not necessarily mean that the car will be more expensive over the term of ownership.

Gerry1

wakkaday said:

Also with the car, I'm just thinking are my calculations right 

battery capacity is 10.8 officially (nominal rating 7.7khw)

I am Charging via 3 pin plug adapter and get around 9 miles when charged. (I know pointless)

So it will take around 5 hours to charge.

Using an online calculator
https://www.sust-it.net/energy-calculator.php?kwh_cost=0.28&kwh_curr=GBP

it says it will cost me around approx  £11 to charge 

That's £1.22 a mile roughly lol, unless I have got it wrong but more importantly this may also be adding to my bill ??

i suppose it makes no difference whether you have a fast charger or slow charger at home does it? As cost is the same Khw?

You seem to have made three mistakes, maybe five.

1. Confusing kW (power) with kWh (energy).  Bit like speed and distance, they're not the same: the dashboard needle isn't telling you the car has travelled 30 miles from new, and the digital display isn't telling you you're speeding at 30,000 miles per hour.

Your calculation seems to be based on drawing 8kW, but a 13A socket can supply a maximum of only 3kW.

2.  Your electricity probably costs more than 28p/kWh after 5% VAT has been added.

3. It would take 3.6 hours to deliver 10.8kWh if the efficiency were 100%.  At 34p/kWh that's £3.67.

Something may still be wrong because that's  a result of only 1.2m/Wh which seems a bit low.

4. Does a full charge really draw 10.8kWh every time?  Charging from 0% to 100% is usually frowned upon, 20% to 80% is generally preferred.

5. Is the full range from a full charge only 9 miles?  A petrol car often warns of low fuel when the range drops to 50 miles, so an EV may be similarly cautious.

matt_drummer

Gerry1 said:

wakkaday said:

Also with the car, I'm just thinking are my calculations right 

battery capacity is 10.8 officially (nominal rating 7.7khw)

I am Charging via 3 pin plug adapter and get around 9 miles when charged. (I know pointless)

So it will take around 5 hours to charge.

Using an online calculator
https://www.sust-it.net/energy-calculator.php?kwh_cost=0.28&kwh_curr=GBP

it says it will cost me around approx  £11 to charge 

That's £1.22 a mile roughly lol, unless I have got it wrong but more importantly this may also be adding to my bill ??

i suppose it makes no difference whether you have a fast charger or slow charger at home does it? As cost is the same Khw?

You seem to have made three mistakes, maybe five.

1. Confusing kW (power) with kWh (energy).  Bit like speed and distance,  they're not the same: the dashboard needle isn't telling you the car has travelled 30 miles from new, and the digital display isn't telling you you're speeding at 30,000 miles per hour.

Your calculation seems to be based on drawing 8kW, but a 13A socket can supply a maximum of only 3kW.

2.  Your electricity probably costs more than 28p/kWh after 5% VAT has been added.

3. It would take 3.6 hours to deliver 10.8kWh if the efficiency were 100%.  At 34p/kWh that's £3.67.

Something may still be wrong because that's  a result of only 1.2m/Wh which seems a bit low.

4. Does a full charge really draw 10.8kWh every time?  Charging from 0% to 100% is usually frowned upon, 20% to 80% is generally preferred.

5. Is the full range from a full charge only 9 miles?  A petrol car often warns of low fuel when the range drops to 50 miles, so an EV may be similarly cautious.

It's not an ev.

It's a petrol car with a tiny battery in comparison to it's size and weight.

It's using 1 to 1.5 Kwh to travel one mile and has a range on electric power of less than 10 miles.

Its a very nice car but could not in any way be described as an ev.

It's probably always going to be charged from 0% to 100% and the battery life will be really short based on my experience with lithium batteries.

matt_drummer

Gerry1 said:

5. Is the full range from a full charge only 9 miles?  A petrol car often warns of low fuel when the range drops to 50 miles, so an EV may be similarly cautious.

My Tesla starts to warn me at around 80 miles of remaining range, I can't remember exactly as it happens rarely!

Again, this is not an ev, it has a petrol engine, and I would guess that the warnings are similar to those in any other petrol or diesel car.

pochase

Gerry1 said:

wakkaday said:

Also with the car, I'm just thinking are my calculations right 

battery capacity is 10.8 officially (nominal rating 7.7khw)

I am Charging via 3 pin plug adapter and get around 9 miles when charged. (I know pointless)

So it will take around 5 hours to charge.

Using an online calculator
https://www.sust-it.net/energy-calculator.php?kwh_cost=0.28&kwh_curr=GBP

it says it will cost me around approx  £11 to charge 

That's £1.22 a mile roughly lol, unless I have got it wrong but more importantly this may also be adding to my bill ??

i suppose it makes no difference whether you have a fast charger or slow charger at home does it? As cost is the same Khw?

You seem to have made three mistakes, maybe five.

1. Confusing kW (power) with kWh (energy).  Bit like speed and distance, they're not the same: the dashboard needle isn't telling you the car has travelled 30 miles from new, and the digital display isn't telling you you're speeding at 30,000 miles per hour.

Your calculation seems to be based on drawing 8kW, but a 13A socket can supply a maximum of only 3kW.

2.  Your electricity probably costs more than 28p/kWh after 5% VAT has been added.

3. It would take 3.6 hours to deliver 10.8kWh if the efficiency were 100%.  At 34p/kWh that's £3.67.

Something may still be wrong because that's  a result of only 1.2m/Wh which seems a bit low.

4. Does a full charge really draw 10.8kWh every time?  Charging from 0% to 100% is usually frowned upon, 20% to 80% is generally preferred.

5. Is the full range from a full charge only 9 miles?  A petrol car often warns of low fuel when the range drops to 50 miles, so an EV may be similarly cautious.

OP has s a fixed tariff, so the 28p are correct.

The battery size is 10.8KW, but the usable battery size for EVs is smaller, in this case 7.8KW. It does not matter at all how fast the battery charges, only the required energy of 7.8KWh plus an additional few percentage for loss is of importance. 

The battery of a plug in Hybrid will be completely used, there is no need to keep a reserve, as @matt_drummer writes it is a Plug-in Hybrid, not a EV, so the rules for charging a EV battery don't really apply here.

The official best case scenario for range of the battery is 14 miles, 9 miles are a very realistic scenario, you will rarely get the best case scenario range.

Robin9

The discussion between Porche and Tesla is very interesting  but can we go back to the original thread please.

Gerry1

pochase said:

Gerry1 said:

wakkaday said:

Also with the car, I'm just thinking are my calculations right 

battery capacity is 10.8 officially (nominal rating 7.7khw)

I am Charging via 3 pin plug adapter and get around 9 miles when charged. (I know pointless)

So it will take around 5 hours to charge.

Using an online calculator
https://www.sust-it.net/energy-calculator.php?kwh_cost=0.28&kwh_curr=GBP

it says it will cost me around approx  £11 to charge 

That's £1.22 a mile roughly lol, unless I have got it wrong but more importantly this may also be adding to my bill ??

i suppose it makes no difference whether you have a fast charger or slow charger at home does it? As cost is the same Khw?

You seem to have made three mistakes, maybe five.

1. Confusing kW (power) with kWh (energy).  Bit like speed and distance, they're not the same: the dashboard needle isn't telling you the car has travelled 30 miles from new, and the digital display isn't telling you you're speeding at 30,000 miles per hour.

Your calculation seems to be based on drawing 8kW, but a 13A socket can supply a maximum of only 3kW.

2.  Your electricity probably costs more than 28p/kWh after 5% VAT has been added.

3. It would take 3.6 hours to deliver 10.8kWh if the efficiency were 100%.  At 34p/kWh that's £3.67.

Something may still be wrong because that's  a result of only 1.2m/Wh which seems a bit low.

4. Does a full charge really draw 10.8kWh every time?  Charging from 0% to 100% is usually frowned upon, 20% to 80% is generally preferred.

5. Is the full range from a full charge only 9 miles?  A petrol car often warns of low fuel when the range drops to 50 miles, so an EV may be similarly cautious.

 The battery size is 10.8KW, but the usable battery size for EVs is smaller, in this case 7.8KW.

Nope, you're also confusing kW with kWh !

matt_drummer

Robin9 said:

The discussion between Porche and Tesla is very interesting  but can we go back to the original thread please.

I think the OP's car electricity consumption is pretty relevant, and seeing as his car uses quite a lot of it, it is even more relevant.

It's not a comparison of Porsche and Tesla, it's a comparison between what you might expect from a plug in hybrid compared to a full ev, as I have a Tesla, that's my example.

The OP is confused over how much electricity his car actually uses and the value in it, it's a valid discussion point in my opinion.