Air Source Heat Pump - Planning permission required!

Reed_Richards

In 1997 I replaced an oil boiler with a condensing gas boiler.  The flue from the gas boiler was about 1 m from my boundary and the side wall of my neighbours' house was right up to this boundary (but no windows on this wall).  The noise from the flue was quite loud and potentially caused a loss of amenity to my neighbours, although they never complained or even commented.

Would the same environmental health regulations concerning noise apply to all forms of heating or are heat pumps singled-out?
  

matt_drummer

Reed_Richards said:

In 1997 I replaced an oil boiler with a condensing gas boiler.  The flue from the gas boiler was about 1 m from my boundary and the side wall of my neighbours' house was right up to this boundary (but no windows on this wall).  The noise from the flue was quite loud and potentially caused a loss of amenity to my neighbours, although they never complained or even commented.

Would the same environmental health regulations concerning noise apply to all forms of heating or are heat pumps singled-out?
  

I would think the same rules would apply, any noise can be considered a loss of amenity except for vehicles and aircraft flying overhead.

IBC quote examples such as dogs barking and the use of power tools and diy. They recommend diy at home should be limited to about an hour in the evenings between around 6pm and 7pm.

You can complain about anything it appears.

I think heat pumps are singled out as being unnecessary vanity projects for the wealthy or eco warriors.

A gas or oil boiler is seen as a necessity to heat a home and they are accepted on this basis even though they create some noise. A heat pump is viewed by many as a noise that isn't required, the noise is only being created to satisfy the owner of the heat pump and therefore neighbours shouldn't be able to hear it.

It's part of a wider kick back against environmentally friendly items such as heat pumps and electric vehicles, seemingly based entirely on the costs.

I get the feeling that the majority of people think that alternatives to burning fossil fuels should be cheaper. It would be nice if they were but that isn't really the point of it. 

BISHOPS

Not sure I entirely agree with an idea of having lower noise standards for HPs.

This isn't just about protecting enjoyment of gardens in the warmer quarter of the year. Noise travels through windows & walls.

Your neighbours may be happy, but others may not. And in acoustics there is a compound effect where you add sound intensities - if there are 3, 4, 5 HPs on a street makes for an issue compounded. 2 of my neighbours are elderly and deaf. They won’t be there forever. The assumption that high summer is the most sensitive time noise-wise - folk should be able to, and do use their gardens at all times of the year and a core principle is that they should not be subject to undue disturbance to their peaceful and quiet enjoyment. This country is depressing enough outside of summer & we don't need that added to.

Then there is the issue of impact noise in addition to the airborne noise. On top of everything else, the tonality is also a specific, recognised issue with HPs - the less frequent steamy gush of a boiler is not as intrusive than a perpetual buzz. The buzz can be dB below birdsong, road noise, boiler noise yet be more aggravating due to tonality.

We can't have a get-out for heat pumps. The industry will need to improve them & if regs are not set in line with other frameworks and in line with what professional acoustic bodies & prevailing EH regs and standards deem appropriate it feels like its heading for potential catastrophe. Noise nuisance is miserable, the commonly accepted standards pre-exist HPs & have been set for a reason.

In my view the appropriate route is to bring regs in line with the long-standing, existing norm of 35db and that will drive improvement in the technology.

It’s down to whether we should downgrade a core principle around levels of acceptable noise - and this would represent a significant downgrade to pre-existing standards given the ideal plan is for a mass rollout across the country - every street, every garden, multiple units. Or whether we accept that this is likely to be an issue, set standards accordingly and ensure industry adapts (and they can adapt quickly). I fear the former approach would of course facilitate a marginally faster rollout... initially, but will lead us to the next scandal & will ultimately lead to a far greater barrier to HP rollout than addressing issues upfront. 

matt_drummer

BISHOPS said:

Not sure I entirely agree with an idea of having lower noise standards for HPs.

This isn't just about protecting enjoyment of gardens in the warmer quarter of the year. Noise travels through windows & walls.

Your neighbours may be happy, but others may not. And in acoustics there is a compound effect where you add sound intensities - if there are 3, 4, 5 HPs on a street makes for an issue compounded. 2 of my neighbours are elderly and deaf. They won’t be there forever. The assumption that high summer is the most sensitive time noise-wise - folk should be able to, and do use their gardens at all times of the year and a core principle is that they should not be subject to undue disturbance to their peaceful and quiet enjoyment. This country is depressing enough outside of summer & we don't need that added to.

Then there is the issue of impact noise in addition to the airborne noise. On top of everything else, the tonality is also a specific, recognised issue with HPs - the less frequent steamy gush of a boiler is not as intrusive than a perpetual buzz. The buzz can be dB below birdsong, road noise, boiler noise yet be more aggravating due to tonality.

We can't have a get-out for heat pumps. The industry will need to improve them & if regs are not set in line with other frameworks and in line with what professional acoustic bodies & prevailing EH regs and standards deem appropriate it feels like its heading for potential catastrophe. Noise nuisance is miserable, the commonly accepted standards pre-exist HPs & have been set for a reason.

In my view the appropriate route is to bring regs in line with the long-standing, existing norm of 35db and that will drive improvement in the technology.

It’s down to whether we should downgrade a core principle around levels of acceptable noise - and this would represent a significant downgrade to pre-existing standards given the ideal plan is for a mass rollout across the country - every street, every garden, multiple units. Or whether we accept that this is likely to be an issue, set standards accordingly and ensure industry adapts (and they can adapt quickly). I fear the former approach would of course facilitate a marginally faster rollout... initially, but will lead us to the next scandal & will ultimately lead to a far greater barrier to HP rollout than addressing issues upfront. 

You have the opposite stance to what I first thought.

In an ideal world we would all be able to live in total peace and quiet but for many of us that is not possible.

Whilst heat pumps make a noise it is not always the same, they are generally very quiet.

I am sure that many people would find even the quietest heat pump annoying and I can understand why.

I find lawn mowers really annoying but my neighbours need to cut their grass so I have to accept it.

I also find bird song really annoying but there is nothing I can do about it.

I need to heat my house and it will make a noise whether I use my heat pump or a gas boiler.

We cannot carry on burning stuff forever, it will eventually run out and an alternative will be necessary.

There is no point in waiting to enjoy the benefits of cleaner heating sources, certainly not just because of a small amount of noise.

My heat pump is under our lounge window, it's inaudible with the window shut, my neighbours were never going to hear it from 12 metres away with their window shut.

My heat pump is also inaudible with the window open due to around seven million vehicles driving past our front door each year!

BISHOPS

matt_drummer said:

BISHOPS said:
(As previous)

You have the opposite stance to what I first thought.

In an ideal world we would all be able to live in total peace and quiet but for many of us that is not possible.

Whilst heat pumps make a noise it is not always the same, they are generally very quiet.

I am sure that many people would find even the quietest heat pump annoying and I can understand why.

I find lawn mowers really annoying but my neighbours need to cut their grass so I have to accept it.

I also find bird song really annoying but there is nothing I can do about it.

I need to heat my house and it will make a noise whether I use my heat pump or a gas boiler.

We cannot carry on burning stuff forever, it will eventually run out and an alternative will be necessary.

There is no point in waiting to enjoy the benefits of cleaner heating sources, certainly not just because of a small amount of noise.

My heat pump is under our lounge window, it's inaudible with the window shut, my neighbours were never going to hear it from 12 metres away with their window shut.

My heat pump is also inaudible with the window open due to around seven million vehicles driving past our front door each year!

The first thing is that your heat pump sounds excellent - no bother at all and meets environmental health regulations & would pass that BS4142 test at 35dB. I'd support any installation that does.

In an ideal world yes we would live in total peace and quiet. That's not realistic, so the chartered professionals in environmental health - experts -  advocate for and set long-standing, research-based standards appropriate to us so we don't slide into downgradism, and government support them in their work. Heat pumps need to meet the basic standards. Yours does. Others need to as well.

Lawn mowers, planes, cars, boilers, bird song are not comparable owing to tonality, how often noise occurs, and impact noise factors. The specific tonality of heat pumps is aggravating and, even beneath the background noise level, can be oppressive and intrusive. It also gets compounded if more than one pump is present. It is also generally held that pumps get nosier as they get older so the initial assessment is always going to be the best case - downhill from there.

We can't carry on burning stuff forever, but we will if the heat pump rollout gets tainted by noise issues. If regulations don't both drive improvement in the tech, & safeguard owners & neighbours from problems/liabilities, setting clear expectations that there are to be mitigations for noise nuisance to ensure the accepted environmental health standard is not breached, then the rollout is heading for difficult territory. 

The MCS formula needs to change to include a limit in line with environmental health minimums.

 

matt_drummer

The world was quieter before cars, planes, lawnmowers and all the other man made noises we now have to contend with on a daily basis.

Times change.

The noise assessment of my heat pump is actually at the worst case in some ways, it doesn't make as much noise right now as the brochure quotes, it's virtually silent. It will make more noise in the colder weather for sure and it will probably get noisier with age.

I am not sure though that it will ever make the amount of noise quoted in the Daikin brochure.

I will, of course, be maintaining it well so I hope it never gets that noisy.

Heat pumps are not that noisy, have you actually heard one.

My neighbour was standing next to ours last week and didn't realise that it was actually running and heating our hot water at the time.

I find a constant noise easier to deal with than random bursts, other people are probably different.

My opinion is that cleaner air is preferable to some extra noise.

Dirty air degrades our health and shortens our lives in many cases.

Whilst some noise might be upsetting for some people it wont physically damage you although I accept that it might cause distress and it's associated problems to some.

I think each installation needs to be assessed on its merits and take into consideration the location of the home.

Where we live, the noise of a heat pump or even many heat pumps is way down the list of causes of distress.

If the police and local authority were even slightly concerned about the residents of Ipswich they would be doing something about the many vehicles that really shouldn't be on the roads here, either for emissions, noise or the manner in which they are being driven. In many cases the cars fall foul of all three of these things!

If you live somewhere really quiet then the noise from a heat pump will be more relevant than it is here.


I will ask you again, have you actually heard a modern heat pump working or are you just basing your views on a reputation?

I ask that in a respectful way and not trying to cause an argument. Our heat pump has generated a lot of interest as it's quite visible, a lot of people thought it was air conditioning!

matt_drummer

One big factor in the noise create by a heat pump is the way the owner operates it.

If it is operated like a gas or oil boiler, coming on for short periods of time and getting radiators really hot, it will be inefficient and noisy.

By having the correct size radiators and the best insulation possible it is possible to run the heat pump at the lowest flow temperatures necessary to keep the home at the desired temperature.

Operating like this, it is possible to keep the heat pump working really gently, efficiently and quietly.

The noise and cost comes from the initial heating, the longer the heat pump runs the quieter it will be

Although it is still a wet radiator heating system, it needs to be operated differently and intelligently to get the best out of it in terms of cost and noise.

The MCS noise limit is not that unrealistic, 40dB is a quiet library, operated with care and thought a heat pump shouldn't cause any loss of amenity to any neighbours at the MCS noise level.

matt_drummer

Our gas boiler has gone and we have been able to fit an integrated fridge/freezer in the kitchen cupboard the housed the boiler.

Our heat pump is quieter than the new appliance in the kitchen from 1 metre away.

At 12 metres, our neighbours would never even have known when our heat pump was on whether their window was open or not.

My planning problems were a load of fuss over nothing based on theoretical data from a manufacturers brochure that bears no resemblance to reality.

matt_drummer

We all accept the noise from motor vehicles, aircraft, trains, lawn mowers, power tools etc etc as we deem them to be necessities.

But some people can't or wont accept the noise from a heat pump as they think a gas or oil boiler does an equally good job with a more acceptable noise.

And that is where the problem lies, heat pumps are a necessity in the same way as all of the other noises we accept.

Burning stuff needs to stop, and soon, we can't carry on like we are.

A heat pump is currently the most efficient way of heating a home in terms of energy use, they need to be embraced and accepted for the benefits they bring to our lives.

Reed_Richards

BISHOPS said:

Lawn mowers, planes, cars, boilers, bird song are not comparable owing to tonality, how often noise occurs, and impact noise factors. 

I disagree.  Boilers are highly comparable with heat pumps.  They operate at similar times of year and day.  The probably run more on/off than a heat pump but is that better or worse?  It's generally easier to become accustomed to a constant noise than to one that starts and stops quite frequently.  Apart from a gas boiler flue having a similar tonality to an oil boiler flue I can't think of any other two sound sources with comparable tonality, but so what?  "Impact noise factors" presumably means how much the noise annoys you, which must surely be down to the individual?