Air Source Heat Pump - Planning permission required!

matt_drummer

Reed_Richards said:

matt_drummer said:

IBC have got it completely wrong in my opinion.

Why don't you invite the officer who was going to object to the previous intended placement to view and hear the finished installation?

The thought has crossed my mind.

But right now it is warm and not really representitive of how noisy it will in the winter.

I don't really think the objection was based on actual noise, I feel it was just about doing a job.

He had an answer for everything, I knew it would be quiet, we all knew it would be quiet, but it is a success on the board for him, he has objected to something that was going to cause `a loss of amenity' to my neighbours and he won.

In the end, I am happy with where the heat pump is from an installation and asthetics point of view. I have some other concerns around security but I will address them in due course.

I may invite him around in the winter when the heat pump is actually operating under more normal conditions.

I may also invite the local MP around to have a look.

FreeBear

matt_drummer said: Now it has been installed I am actually happy with the location, it's probably better than my original proposal so we are happy.

I'd be interested to see what the wall looks like during a really cold snap - Kinda wondering if a layer of ice will build up.

matt_drummer

FreeBear said:

matt_drummer said: Now it has been installed I am actually happy with the location, it's probably better than my original proposal so we are happy.

I'd be interested to see what the wall looks like during a really cold snap - Kinda wondering if a layer of ice will build up.

What wall?

If you are talking about the front wall of my house what makes you think it is any more prone to icing up than the walls that other heat pumps are installed on?

The heat pump won't cause the wall behind it to freeze. The heat pump sucks in air from the rear and sides of the unit at ambient temperature and then blows it out of the front with its fan. Anything in front of the heat pump will get colder.

Luckily, the installers did fit my heat pump with the fan facing the house!

FreeBear

matt_drummer said:

FreeBear said:

matt_drummer said: Now it has been installed I am actually happy with the location, it's probably better than my original proposal so we are happy.

I'd be interested to see what the wall looks like during a really cold snap - Kinda wondering if a layer of ice will build up.

What wall?

If you are talking about the front wall of my house what makes you think it is any more prone to icing up than the walls that other heat pumps are installed on?

The heat pump won't cause the wall behind it to freeze. The heat pump sucks in air from the rear and sides of the unit at ambient temperature and then blows it out of the front with its fan. Anything in front of the heat pump will get colder.

Did wonder which way the fan was blowing air.

I have recollections of seeing a house for sale where they had taken photos of the ASHP (in winter), and it appeared that the wall had a layer of ice on it.

matt_drummer

FreeBear said:

matt_drummer said:

FreeBear said:

matt_drummer said: Now it has been installed I am actually happy with the location, it's probably better than my original proposal so we are happy.

I'd be interested to see what the wall looks like during a really cold snap - Kinda wondering if a layer of ice will build up.

What wall?

If you are talking about the front wall of my house what makes you think it is any more prone to icing up than the walls that other heat pumps are installed on?

The heat pump won't cause the wall behind it to freeze. The heat pump sucks in air from the rear and sides of the unit at ambient temperature and then blows it out of the front with its fan. Anything in front of the heat pump will get colder.

Did wonder which way the fan was blowing air.

I have recollections of seeing a house for sale where they had taken photos of the ASHP (in winter), and it appeared that the wall had a layer of ice on it.

It s possible I would imagine if the heat pump was installed in a more confined space, it would create a micro climate.

If it was -10c I dare say the heat pump could get a confined space much lower and cause ice to form on a wall.

It also depends on how close the heat pump is to the wall, mine is stood off a fair distance to accommodate the anti frost valves.

The heat pump sucks air in from one side and the rear, I don't know if that air flow is enough to cause a drop in temperature.

However, if the heat pump is going to cause any wall to freeze, the fact that it is the front of the house is no worse than any other wall, I need them all!

BISHOPS

Please could you help me understand?

Seems to be that the limit for permitted development is 42db 1m out from neighbour's nearest habitable window. This is not/never an actual reading but the product of the MCS020 calculation.

However, I've seen loads of councils eg Waverley, Mid Sussex, Highland, Wiltshire, Mole Valley stating:

"Noise resulting from the use of the ASHP shall not exceed a level of 5dB LAeq below the existing background level when measured according to British Standard BS4142:2019".

So 2 different rules. One based on a formula and another on a live acoustic test.

Am I right in saying that:

- if your ASHP passes the MCS020 formula test that's the end of it - it's PD & no problem, & there can be no come back/complaint? And only if you fail the MCS020 formula test must you have a BS4142 check and fall under the -5dB rule (if you live in those council areas)?

... or does passing the MCS020 formula test & PD being granted only stand & remain as long as no Env. Health complaint is made (any complaint then being investigated with reference to BS4142 with a -5dB rule applied)?

Difficult to work out in reality what the acceptable dB level is outside a neighbouring window with the complexities.

Many thanks.

Bish.

matt_drummer

BISHOPS said:

Please could you help me understand?

Seems to be that the limit for permitted development is 42db 1m out from neighbour's nearest habitable window. This is not/never an actual reading but the product of the MCS020 calculation.

However, I've seen loads of councils eg Waverley, Mid Sussex, Highland, Wiltshire, Mole Valley stating:

"Noise resulting from the use of the ASHP shall not exceed a level of 5dB LAeq below the existing background level when measured according to British Standard BS4142:2019".

So 2 different rules. One based on a formula and another on a live acoustic test.

Am I right in saying that:

- if your ASHP passes the MCS020 formula test that's the end of it - it's PD & no problem, & there can be no come back/complaint? And only if you fail the MCS020 formula test must you have a BS4142 check and fall under the -5dB rule (if you live in those council areas)?

... or does passing the MCS020 formula test & PD being granted only stand & remain as long as no Env. Health complaint is made (any complaint then being investigated with reference to BS4142 with a -5dB rule applied)?

Difficult to work out in reality what the acceptable dB level is outside a neighbouring window with the complexities.

Many thanks.

Bish.

The MCS noise test is completely theoretical. It is not a noise test at all, just a calculation of noise levels at relevant receptors based on a background noise of 40dB and the highest sound level quoted in the manufacturers brochure.

As long as this and the other MCS conditions are complied with then it is permitted development and planning permission is not required.

I don't think this gives any exemption or protection against complaints from neighbours about noise.

My feeling is that anybody could be forced to relocate or reduce the noise from an ASHP even though it is permitted development if it is considered to cause a loss of amenity to neighbours.

I think most Environmental Protection Officers are not happy with the MCS noise levels and aim for IOA/CIEH noise levels which are much lower at 35dB.

My ASHP has been assessed by our EPO at less than 35dB at all the relevant receptors.

BISHOPS

Hi Matt,

Thanks for explaining. 

Yes, sure seems like a pump that meets the 42db calculation can be permitted development yet be unacceptable & liable to be removed by Env. Health as a statutory nuisance if a sound recording at nearest assessment point is over 35dB on a BS4142 test.

Digging a bit deeper: https://www.ioa.org.uk/file/4119/download?token=ChWn9P4l

Looks like the Chartered Inst. of Env. Health and Instit. of Acoustics were (and are) pushing for 35dB to be the limit for the MCS020 calculation, in alignment with other domestic noise regulation and standards. The Association of Noise Consultants, Institute of Acoustics and CIEH share this as their professional, research-based position.

However industry was pitching for 45dB. The government settled on 42dB output for the calculation for PD.

In doing so the govt seem to me to have rather unwisely landed some potential & actual owners in hot water by creating this grey zone.

Absolute best approach for would-be owners seems to be to ensure the ASHP would not exceed 35db at nearest neighbour assessment point, otherwise make sure neighbours are hard of hearing, tolerant and will live next door forever!

 

I can imagine the MCS limit being reset to 35db in alignment with BS4142 and other env. health regs given this policy clash that could trap owners, land installers in hot water, antagonise neighbours & stand against a core requirement of env. health noise testing.

Thanks again.

matt_drummer

I think it is important to go back to the beginning and remember why we are trying to install air source heat pumps in homes.

They are vastly more efficient in terms of energy use than any form of combustion heating system and have no harmful emissions at the point of use.

They are not a luxury item that should only be available to the wealthy and those living in less built up areas.

A heat pump is not like having an extension, it's a heating system that doesn't burn anything. They are not vanity projects.

At the moment councils are treating heat pumps as if they are harmful and you can only have one if your neighbours won't hear it. That is completely wrong in my opinion.

In order to gain the benefits of an ASHP there are costs, both financial and environmental in terms of noise.

Councils need to consider what is of more benefit to residents, cleaner air or less noise.

I believe that cleaner air is preferable to a slightly quieter life.

The noise assessments are flawed in many ways and one of the biggest flaws is that no consideration is given to when the heat pump will be working at its noisiest.

During the summer when neighbours will be out enjoying their outside spaces and living with windows open a heat pump will not be running save for a short period when heating the hot water tank. Even so, the operation will be really quiet as the heat pump is not working very hard. There is little to no noise pollution in the warmer months and no loss of amenity for any neighbour however close they may be.

A heat pump will be noisiest when it's coldest, a time when most people will be indoors with windows shut.

I think the majority of houses where I live would have a noise problem as things currently stand.

Reducing the noise limit will make installation more difficult and in many cases impossible.

That can't be the right direction to go, installation should be easier and available to everybody. Whilst some noise in the winter is unfortunate, people will get used to it, they'll have to if the goal is to burn less fossil fuels.

matt_drummer

BISHOPS said:

Absolute best approach for would-be owners seems to be to ensure the ASHP would not exceed 35db at nearest neighbour assessment point, otherwise make sure neighbours are hard of hearing, tolerant and will live next door forever!

 

My neighbours were, and still are, fully supportive of my heat pump and didn't object to it's original planned location.

The only objection was from the EPO at Ipswich Borough Council, a man who doesn't even live in the same town as me!

His objection was enough for the planning officer to tell me that planning permission would be refused solely on this objection. The fact that there were no objections from any of my neighbours was irrelevant.