‘Grey imports’

cymruchris

keepitlegal said:
Because there is no serial number actually on the camera (the box in which the serial number is printed, is blank), I inputted the serial number from the shops receipt, the answer from Nikon is that it was affected so I sent it off to them for a free repair.

The question here for me - is where did the retailer get the serial number from for your receipt? If the box has no serial number, and the camera has no serial number printed on it, and Nikon have said that the serial number for the sake of argument is '123456' and the receipt says it's '45454545' - how did the retailer get the '45454545' number? I'd be arguing that the item received wasn't the item on the receipt. 

I have a 12 month dealer warranty with the camera.

Whatever happens then you should have 12 months repair coverage at no charge no matter what. Beyond that even if Nikon got funny about repairs (They shouldn't for chargeable repairs) - there are still a number of good independent repairers that could complete the repair for you. Saying that - although camera bodies can go wrong, it isn't common, so the probability of returning is quite low - particularly when out of warranty repairs can be as costly as replacing the whole body with a new 'used' one. 

Nikon actually say the turn around time for repairs is approximately 20 working days.
Nikon had the camera for over 1 month to investigate the serial number problems, they actually contacted the shop, I think one of their concerns was that the shop are Nikon dealers and Nikon wanted know why they were selling grey imports.

Has the shop responded to you since Nikon contacted them? (Have they acknowledged Nikon contacted them?)


My complaint is 
Not being told it was a grey market import (Nikon have been known to refuse any repairs needed, even after their warranty runs out, with grey market cameras)

To be fair - most retailers wouldn't be able to tell where the body had come from. Only Nikon themselves would have access to serial number records - so the retailer wouldn't necessarily have known it was grey.

How can I prove this is the camera I bought from the dealer as the correct serial number is different to the serial number on the receipt?

That's a question that the retailer should be able to answer. You could request the retailer send updated documentation to show the correct serial number.


I have been left without a camera for over 1 month, when if the correct serial number was on the receipt I would have needed to return the camera to Nikon
Ive lost over 1 months dealer warranty for no reason

It's unfortunate - but returns to manufacturers for repairs do take time. Although in this case if you'd had the correct serial number you wouldn't have needed to send it back. (You could ask the retailer to extend the warranty by a further month through their failure to give you the correct serial number).

The dealers website actually warns against buying grey imports.
Hope that further explains my position.

I've added a few points to your comments above. 

Having a 'grey' camera wouldn't worry me in the slightest. They are made in the same factory, to the same standards, but are just initially destined for another country. It's not made of cheaper components and they haven't used less paint - it's literally the same camera. I think there are other irregularities that the dealer needs to address though, such as how the serial number given on your receipt is not the serial number of the camera. 

tightauldgit

cymruchris said:

tightauldgit said:

cymruchris said:

keepitlegal said:

I understand it is illegal to sell imported grey goods into Great Britain, but does this extend to secondhand sales? 

It's not illegal. 

If you do some googling I think the source of confusion is that 'grey' seems to have two different uses.

1. An actual genuine authorised Nikon product imported to the UK through non-standard channels - legal. For example, someone is able to pick up a cheap job lot of Nikon cameras in Greece and ship them to the UK then sells them legally but not authorized by Nikon. Nikon still get paid for the cameras but by whatever route they got paid in Greece.

2. A third party manufacturer of a product runs off a few extra without the consent of the brand and flogs them through whatever channels. Although it would be branded Nikon this isn't a genuine Nikon product and Nikon never got paid for it. So it's effectively a high-class counterfeit. These are illegal to sell. 

Both these cases seem to be called "grey"  

I think the majority of 'grey import' cameras fall into the first category. If Nikon found out that there was a considerable supply of cameras that it had no records of as per scenario two, I can imagine that within hours the factory producing them would lose their contract, and a whole lot more. A factory would be pretty daft to do this, as no doubt owners would eventually need maintenance and service, and the whole ruse would soon be found out. (Not to say it wouldn't happen - but much further up the unlikely scale)

You never heard of 'third shift' counterfeits? 

https://www.brown.edu/Departments/Engineering/Courses/En100/IP/ThirdShift_Fortune06.htm

It's one reason I'm always reluctant to buy anything expensive even from retail stores in China or HK or other parts of Asia because I don't think the provenance can ever really be 100% trusted. 

keepitlegal

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head said:

Grey imports used to refer to legitimate goods sourced from outside the EU without the brand owners consent, there was a big Tesco case on this which Tesco lost:

https://www.pinsentmasons.com/out-law/news/tesco-loses-levi-jeans-trade-mark-battle

That's not to suggest all grey imports are "illegal", if they are imported with the brand owner's consent then it's legal AFAIK. 

How trademarks work now the UK has left the EU I'm not sure but the issue is one of rights ownership rather than anything else. 

OP's issue would come under misleading practices and omissions (no mention of material information which may alter the economic activity of the average consumer), given this store has a head office (so isn't an independent shop) you'd think they'd just refund the customer out of goodwill given the complaint is somewhat legitimate, OP it might be easier to contact the company's head office directly to see if they'll assist.

I’m in the process of emailing head office.

the_lunatic_is_in_my_head

Goods manufactured without the rights owners consent, regardless of which factory they may have come from, are not grey imports, they are counterfeit. 

keepitlegal said:

I’m in the process of emailing head office.

Keep us posted if you can and pop back if you need more advice depending upon what they say  

keepitlegal

cymruchris said:

keepitlegal said:
Because there is no serial number actually on the camera (the box in which the serial number is printed, is blank), I inputted the serial number from the shops receipt, the answer from Nikon is that it was affected so I sent it off to them for a free repair.

The question here for me - is where did the retailer get the serial number from for your receipt? If the box has no serial number, and the camera has no serial number printed on it, and Nikon have said that the serial number for the sake of argument is '123456' and the receipt says it's '45454545' - how did the retailer get the '45454545' number? I'd be arguing that the item received wasn't the item on the receipt. 

I have a 12 month dealer warranty with the camera.

Whatever happens then you should have 12 months repair coverage at no charge no matter what. Beyond that even if Nikon got funny about repairs (They shouldn't for chargeable repairs) - there are still a number of good independent repairers that could complete the repair for you. Saying that - although camera bodies can go wrong, it isn't common, so the probability of returning is quite low - particularly when out of warranty repairs can be as costly as replacing the whole body with a new 'used' one. 

Nikon actually say the turn around time for repairs is approximately 20 working days.
Nikon had the camera for over 1 month to investigate the serial number problems, they actually contacted the shop, I think one of their concerns was that the shop are Nikon dealers and Nikon wanted know why they were selling grey imports.

Has the shop responded to you since Nikon contacted them? (Have they acknowledged Nikon contacted them?)


My complaint is 
Not being told it was a grey market import (Nikon have been known to refuse any repairs needed, even after their warranty runs out, with grey market cameras)

To be fair - most retailers wouldn't be able to tell where the body had come from. Only Nikon themselves would have access to serial number records - so the retailer wouldn't necessarily have known it was grey.

How can I prove this is the camera I bought from the dealer as the correct serial number is different to the serial number on the receipt?

That's a question that the retailer should be able to answer. You could request the retailer send updated documentation to show the correct serial number.


I have been left without a camera for over 1 month, when if the correct serial number was on the receipt I would have needed to return the camera to Nikon
Ive lost over 1 months dealer warranty for no reason

It's unfortunate - but returns to manufacturers for repairs do take time. Although in this case if you'd had the correct serial number you wouldn't have needed to send it back. (You could ask the retailer to extend the warranty by a further month through their failure to give you the correct serial number).

The dealers website actually warns against buying grey imports.
Hope that further explains my position.

I've added a few points to your comments above. 

Having a 'grey' camera wouldn't worry me in the slightest. They are made in the same factory, to the same standards, but are just initially destined for another country. It's not made of cheaper components and they haven't used less paint - it's literally the same camera. I think there are other irregularities that the dealer needs to address though, such as how the serial number given on your receipt is not the serial number of the camera. 

A lot to answer, here goes.

The receipt says serial number, underneath that is a number against each item I bought (camera, lens, a filter fr the lens and a carrier bag). The deal has now said the number is not the serial number but a sales code? The salesman could provide an answer why it said ‘serial number’ instead of ‘sales code number’!

I drive a VW, it is always serviced by VW, if the camera ever needs a repair, I would send it off to Nikon, I don’t particularly like independent repairs, that’s just how I am.

The shop have never contacted me, they’ve never acknowledged Nikon speaking to them about my camera.

The shop advertised the camera online, the advert was shown to me by the salesman when I took the camera back, in the advert they said it was a possible grey import. I never saw the advert before I made the purchase and the salesmen did not inform that it was a possible grey import. I went into the shop just to see what was available, I had no intention of buying anything.

Hope that explains a bit more.

keepitlegal

This is taken from the dealers own website, warning buyers about grey imports and the reasons why you should stay clear of them.

The Drawbacks of Grey Imports

• In some cases the manufacturer will not support the standard warranty
• Some manufacturers promote additional years of warranty in the UK – a grey import would not qualify for this support
• In many instances you will not be eligible for a cashback promotion if that is run by the UK office of that manufacturer
• Sometimes manufacturers don't even want to undertake chargeable repairs on grey imports
• You can be liable for import duty and VAT on your purchase
• If the product goes missing in transit you may be liable; check the small print to see when the title of the goods transfers to the customer
• It may be more difficult to return an item 

I have heard Nikon in the past have refused to undertake chargeable repairs on grey imports, as it states above (item 4) on the dealers website.

cymruchris

keepitlegal said:

cymruchris said:

keepitlegal said:
Because there is no serial number actually on the camera (the box in which the serial number is printed, is blank), I inputted the serial number from the shops receipt, the answer from Nikon is that it was affected so I sent it off to them for a free repair.

The question here for me - is where did the retailer get the serial number from for your receipt? If the box has no serial number, and the camera has no serial number printed on it, and Nikon have said that the serial number for the sake of argument is '123456' and the receipt says it's '45454545' - how did the retailer get the '45454545' number? I'd be arguing that the item received wasn't the item on the receipt. 

I have a 12 month dealer warranty with the camera.

Whatever happens then you should have 12 months repair coverage at no charge no matter what. Beyond that even if Nikon got funny about repairs (They shouldn't for chargeable repairs) - there are still a number of good independent repairers that could complete the repair for you. Saying that - although camera bodies can go wrong, it isn't common, so the probability of returning is quite low - particularly when out of warranty repairs can be as costly as replacing the whole body with a new 'used' one. 

Nikon actually say the turn around time for repairs is approximately 20 working days.
Nikon had the camera for over 1 month to investigate the serial number problems, they actually contacted the shop, I think one of their concerns was that the shop are Nikon dealers and Nikon wanted know why they were selling grey imports.

Has the shop responded to you since Nikon contacted them? (Have they acknowledged Nikon contacted them?)


My complaint is 
Not being told it was a grey market import (Nikon have been known to refuse any repairs needed, even after their warranty runs out, with grey market cameras)

To be fair - most retailers wouldn't be able to tell where the body had come from. Only Nikon themselves would have access to serial number records - so the retailer wouldn't necessarily have known it was grey.

How can I prove this is the camera I bought from the dealer as the correct serial number is different to the serial number on the receipt?

That's a question that the retailer should be able to answer. You could request the retailer send updated documentation to show the correct serial number.


I have been left without a camera for over 1 month, when if the correct serial number was on the receipt I would have needed to return the camera to Nikon
Ive lost over 1 months dealer warranty for no reason

It's unfortunate - but returns to manufacturers for repairs do take time. Although in this case if you'd had the correct serial number you wouldn't have needed to send it back. (You could ask the retailer to extend the warranty by a further month through their failure to give you the correct serial number).

The dealers website actually warns against buying grey imports.
Hope that further explains my position.

I've added a few points to your comments above. 

Having a 'grey' camera wouldn't worry me in the slightest. They are made in the same factory, to the same standards, but are just initially destined for another country. It's not made of cheaper components and they haven't used less paint - it's literally the same camera. I think there are other irregularities that the dealer needs to address though, such as how the serial number given on your receipt is not the serial number of the camera. 

A lot to answer, here goes.

The receipt says serial number, underneath that is a number against each item I bought (camera, lens, a filter fr the lens and a carrier bag). The deal has now said the number is not the serial number but a sales code? The salesman could provide an answer why it said ‘serial number’ instead of ‘sales code number’!

I drive a VW, it is always serviced by VW, if the camera ever needs a repair, I would send it off to Nikon, I don’t particularly like independent repairs, that’s just how I am.

The shop have never contacted me, they’ve never acknowledged Nikon speaking to them about my camera.

The shop advertised the camera online, the advert was shown to me by the salesman when I took the camera back, in the advert they said it was a possible grey import. I never saw the advert before I made the purchase and the salesmen did not inform that it was a possible grey import. I went into the shop just to see what was available, I had no intention of buying anything.

Hope that explains a bit more.

For your lens - do the numbers on the receipt match the serial numbers on the product? Or is that also a 'sales code'?

If the receipt says 'serial number' then that's what should be there. If it's a 'sales code' then it should say 'sales code'.

I imagine they would put 'possible grey import' as a disclaimer against most camera bodies if they weren't absolutely sure of the provenance. As I say, it's only the retailers that would usually have access to serial number records to know where it was originally destined.

I'm sure you'll update us as to progress to see what's said, and an outcome. I appreciate we're all different in what we want and expect from our second hand purchases - but as per your original post - they've not done anything illegal by selling a second hand camera that's turned out to be a grey import. They've given a relatively generous warranty for a used item - but there are certainly things that they could have improved upon in terms of the sale and their communication/written receipts etc.

cymruchris

keepitlegal said:

This is taken from the dealers own website, warning buyers about grey imports and the reasons why you should stay clear of them.

The Drawbacks of Grey Imports

• In some cases the manufacturer will not support the standard warranty
• Some manufacturers promote additional years of warranty in the UK – a grey import would not qualify for this support
• In many instances you will not be eligible for a cashback promotion if that is run by the UK office of that manufacturer
• Sometimes manufacturers don't even want to undertake chargeable repairs on grey imports
• You can be liable for import duty and VAT on your purchase
• If the product goes missing in transit you may be liable; check the small print to see when the title of the goods transfers to the customer
• It may be more difficult to return an item 

I have heard Nikon in the past have refused to undertake chargeable repairs on grey imports, as it states above (item 4) on the dealers website.

Just to balance the above (as a UK retailer would state these 'drawbacks') - the above is for buying 'new' from a grey importer - there are some well-regarded grey import suppliers who offer prices far more competitive than the UK equivalent, whereby they offer their own in-house warranty - that if an item goes wrong, it gets sent back to the UK manufacturer, repaired, and the repair directly reimbursed. Even with cashback - UK prices are higher in many cases than grey imports. The 'good' grey importers satisfy import duty and VAT details (Yes there are some bad ones that evade it there's no doubt). The saving when buying new is usually significant enough that even a paid for repair down the line makes the item cheaper than if bought in the UK. 

I have over the years bought from the UK - and bought grey. Yes there are some additional things to consider - and yes things can go wrong if you don't do your research - but savings can be made. 

You're in the position of buying a used grey which most of the above wouldn't apply, but I do understand that it's something that worries you, even if it wouldn't worry me. (As I say - we're all different in what we want/expect from a used purchase).

If you've got a proof of purchase from a UK company - I can't ever see Nikon refusing a repair, and in the unlikely event they did - I'd expect the retailer you purchased it from to resolve it for you, even out of warranty. 

There are always 'scare stories' posted against grey imports - but the reality is thousands and thousands of units get shipped in every month, and there are many 'great stories' where people have saved money, somethings gone wrong, and the retailer has put it right with no fuss whatsoever. 

keepitlegal

cymruchris said:

keepitlegal said:

cymruchris said:

keepitlegal said:
Because there is no serial number actually on the camera (the box in which the serial number is printed, is blank), I inputted the serial number from the shops receipt, the answer from Nikon is that it was affected so I sent it off to them for a free repair.

The question here for me - is where did the retailer get the serial number from for your receipt? If the box has no serial number, and the camera has no serial number printed on it, and Nikon have said that the serial number for the sake of argument is '123456' and the receipt says it's '45454545' - how did the retailer get the '45454545' number? I'd be arguing that the item received wasn't the item on the receipt. 

I have a 12 month dealer warranty with the camera.

Whatever happens then you should have 12 months repair coverage at no charge no matter what. Beyond that even if Nikon got funny about repairs (They shouldn't for chargeable repairs) - there are still a number of good independent repairers that could complete the repair for you. Saying that - although camera bodies can go wrong, it isn't common, so the probability of returning is quite low - particularly when out of warranty repairs can be as costly as replacing the whole body with a new 'used' one. 

Nikon actually say the turn around time for repairs is approximately 20 working days.
Nikon had the camera for over 1 month to investigate the serial number problems, they actually contacted the shop, I think one of their concerns was that the shop are Nikon dealers and Nikon wanted know why they were selling grey imports.

Has the shop responded to you since Nikon contacted them? (Have they acknowledged Nikon contacted them?)


My complaint is 
Not being told it was a grey market import (Nikon have been known to refuse any repairs needed, even after their warranty runs out, with grey market cameras)

To be fair - most retailers wouldn't be able to tell where the body had come from. Only Nikon themselves would have access to serial number records - so the retailer wouldn't necessarily have known it was grey.

How can I prove this is the camera I bought from the dealer as the correct serial number is different to the serial number on the receipt?

That's a question that the retailer should be able to answer. You could request the retailer send updated documentation to show the correct serial number.


I have been left without a camera for over 1 month, when if the correct serial number was on the receipt I would have needed to return the camera to Nikon
Ive lost over 1 months dealer warranty for no reason

It's unfortunate - but returns to manufacturers for repairs do take time. Although in this case if you'd had the correct serial number you wouldn't have needed to send it back. (You could ask the retailer to extend the warranty by a further month through their failure to give you the correct serial number).

The dealers website actually warns against buying grey imports.
Hope that further explains my position.

I've added a few points to your comments above. 

Having a 'grey' camera wouldn't worry me in the slightest. They are made in the same factory, to the same standards, but are just initially destined for another country. It's not made of cheaper components and they haven't used less paint - it's literally the same camera. I think there are other irregularities that the dealer needs to address though, such as how the serial number given on your receipt is not the serial number of the camera. 

A lot to answer, here goes.

The receipt says serial number, underneath that is a number against each item I bought (camera, lens, a filter fr the lens and a carrier bag). The deal has now said the number is not the serial number but a sales code? The salesman could provide an answer why it said ‘serial number’ instead of ‘sales code number’!

I drive a VW, it is always serviced by VW, if the camera ever needs a repair, I would send it off to Nikon, I don’t particularly like independent repairs, that’s just how I am.

The shop have never contacted me, they’ve never acknowledged Nikon speaking to them about my camera.

The shop advertised the camera online, the advert was shown to me by the salesman when I took the camera back, in the advert they said it was a possible grey import. I never saw the advert before I made the purchase and the salesmen did not inform that it was a possible grey import. I went into the shop just to see what was available, I had no intention of buying anything.

Hope that explains a bit more.

For your lens - do the numbers on the receipt match the serial numbers on the product? Or is that also a 'sales code'?

If the receipt says 'serial number' then that's what should be there. If it's a 'sales code' then it should say 'sales code'.

I imagine they would put 'possible grey import' as a disclaimer against most camera bodies if they weren't absolutely sure of the provenance. As I say, it's only the retailers that would usually have access to serial number records to know where it was originally destined.

I'm sure you'll update us as to progress to see what's said, and an outcome. I appreciate we're all different in what we want and expect from our second hand purchases - but as per your original post - they've not done anything illegal by selling a second hand camera that's turned out to be a grey import. They've given a relatively generous warranty for a used item - but there are certainly things that they could have improved upon in terms of the sale and their communication/written receipts etc.

The numbers on the receipt are a joke, says serial number, but retailer says it’s something different? I know a chap who has the same model, it’s out of guarantee and has a problem, I wonder if I’d been the dishonest type, I had taken his camera to the shop and claimed it was the one I bought from them? How can either of us decide who’s telling the truth?
The serial number for the lens on the receipt is not the same as the number printed on the lens.
Ive being looking daily on their website, nothing has had a warning against it, say possible grey import.

keepitlegal

Cymruchris, I’ve never knowingly bought any grey imports and although there’s savings to be made, I wouldn’t ever buy a grey import. That’s just how I am.
I also didn’t get a better price from the retailer, in fact it was slightly more expensive than the same model cameras in their other stores.