Building work & neighbours roof... Please be kind 😔

funkyfifi

Hi all, I'm hoping this is somewhere I can post safely as this is making me feel ill everyday & would like some advice about what I'm potentially looking at.... 
I'll try to post it honestly, and sorry its long... I know I'm in the wrong, but would appreciate kindness in the way the comments come xxx
I lost my beautiful Mum last year and have moved myself and 2 kids into her house. My teenage daughters bedroom was exceptionally small, so planned a double side extention to knock that bedroom into the new space above a new garage to make it a final forever home. Got all necessary planning /building regs granted, and found a good builder and got ready to start last October.
The builder did a depth test for an outside wall that was already built next to the boundary with the next door neighbours & it had adequate foundations already to do the extension, so no excavation needed. I was of the stupid naive understanding that this meant I didn't need to have a party wall agreement because it was no work on an actual shared wall and no digging down. 
The neighbours have a breeze block single storey felted flat roof room at the side of their house which is around 8 years old and in a bad state... We started work and the neighbours said their roof wasn't very good, so I put into writing that we'd put anything back to the condition it was before if any agreed damage occurred because of the works, took some photos and we both signed it. The builder also took a couple of videos of the roof which I've found out recently because the flat roof was spongy. We paid 400 pound extra to have cantilever scaffolding that didn't sit on their roof, but they've now said I need to pay for a new roof as its worse in one place than before. It's spongy in lots of places, which I think is because the flashing doesn't even sit where it joins the wall of their house and the water has been getting to it. Plus the guttering is broken.... 
Like I said, it's making me feel so so I'll and I don't even want to leave the house or go shopping locally, my Dad is helping lots, but communication is difficult as they're not answering the door for me to try to speak in person, and their English isn't great. 
We finish the whole lot next week and will just be decorating in here to do. 
I'm more than happy to compensate them financially, for inconvenience of the works if I have to, I promise I'm a good person and I'm wanting to be reasonable and find a way that nobody hates me, but a whole new roof is potentially about 10k I think & I know I've not protected myself enough for things to be ok.... I'm literally shaking about being taken to court and I wanted to post for people who can offer practical advice please about what I can do? 
Thank you, and I'll answer anything I can x

ThisIsWeird

So, your extension is not making any physical contact with any part of the neighbour's building, including the garage? And, during the work, your scaffolding also made no contact with this garage roof?

And, smartly, you and the builder took photos and videos of the garage condition, before, during, and after?

 Phew

Do not worry at all at not having a PWA agreement in place - that bird has flown. There are overstated in any case, since folk are already protected from damage caused by works. I mean, if your construction had made their wall collapse, clearly you (your builder) would be liable, PWA or not. Ditto if a scaff pole had gone through their roof - the builder or scaffolder would have been liable, regardless. So don't worry.

So what you have here is a simple case of "are you responsible for any damage being caused to this neighbour's roof?" It would appear that the answer is a clear 'no'.

There endeth the matter.

Do not fret or become upset because someone else is mistaken about this matter. IF the roof was damaged by your building work, then it would/should be easy for them to prove, and you would know it was the case. If it hasn't been caused by your work, they will clearly not be able to demonstrate that it was, so they have no case. 

Do you have any inkling or suspicion whether they genuinely believe you caused damage, or are 'trying it on'?!

And do you have Legal Protection included in your house insurance?

You can add that any 'sogginess' was clearly not caused by your work - that will almost certainly be the result of long-term rot and decay. Any attempt to suggest you are liable for this should be very easy to rebuff.

What to do? Just be frank, honest and clear. Explain that your scaffold wasn't in contact with their garage, and it's clear that nothing was dropped on to it either. Your builder confirms that the roof was saggy/soggy at the start, and any investigation should reveal what the true cause is. If you had caused any damage, then of course you'd have sorted it. But you haven't, so - sorry - you won't.

Entirely up to you whether you wish to make a small gift 'as a thank you for any inconvenience during the building', but that is literally what it should be - a very kind gesture, and only if they 'deserve' it - ie they are nice, decent folk you wish to be on good terms with - and would clearly appreciate it (eg, they are not outwardly wealthy). But I'd suggest that this should only be suggested and entertained if they fully accept, in good grace, that you have not caused any damage. Eg, if you and/or your builder offered to have a look at their garage with them, and could point out, say, rotting joists, and the neighbour accepted with a, "Ah, yes, I see, you are right - it's clearly been like that for a long time, and is unconnected with your work. Soz." Then you could, if you wished, and if you could easily afford it, say summat like, "Look, you've been really understanding during our building, so we'd like to give you something towards it being repaired as a 'thank you'.. ", and I'd be thinking in terms of a few hundred only. But absolutely NO moral or other onus on you to do so. And certainly not if any reluctance by them to accept the facts about their garage - it is not to 'shut them up'.

FreeBear

funkyfifi said: The neighbours have a breeze block single storey felted flat roof room at the side of their house which is around 8 years old and in a bad state...
I'm more than happy to compensate them financially, for inconvenience of the works if I have to, I promise I'm a good person and I'm wanting to be reasonable and find a way that nobody hates me, but a whole new roof is potentially about 10k I think

Unless this flat roof is exceptionally large, it is unlikely to cost more than a couple of thousands.

A flat roof, covered in torch-on felt (probably the most common covering) has a life span of around 15 years, maybe a bit longer if cared for. As this roof is already half way through its life, you should not be paying in full for a replacement. Assuming your builders had caused sufficient damage to warrant a full replacement, a request for 50% of the cost would be as much as could be expected - Any more, and it would be "betterment". However, if indeed the roof had multiple spongy areas,I suspect the roof is either much older than they claim, and/or already on its last legs.

Ask your builder how much it would cost to repair any leaks (but not the flashing) - it is likely to be at most, £500. Make an offer in writing to pay for repairs to the damaged section, but reject any suggestion to pay for a new roof.

Do you have legal cover on your household insurance ?

plumb1_2

Now you have finished the building work I would now take another set of photos, then you have before and after photos. Just in case they press the issue.
Plus I wouldn’t give them any money, it might be interpreted as admission of fault.
Maybe a case of wine with a note stating it’s for any inconvenience caused during the building work.

tacpot12

I agree that the sponginess has occured over time, probably because the roof wasn't well installed in the first place and hasn't been maintained (flashing & guttering), but in order to maintain good relations with your neighbours, it might be better to offer to contribute something to their cost of replacing the roof. 

You will need to be very firm with them, and I suspect that your dad might find it easier to negotiate on your behalf, assuming he won't stand for any nonsense. You should also talk to the legal helpline (if you have legal expenses cover on your home insurance) as they may want to make the offer themselves so that you are not creating a position that they cannot defend later.

You (or your Dad) needs to explain your it is your legal position that the roof was not damaged by the work and that you have evidence of this.  Explain that if they say otherwise, they will have to prove that the damage was caused by you in court, and they will not be able to do because that sort of damage does not happen over 6 months. It takes at least a couple of years. You (or he) should remind them that your offer to make good any damage was to make good any damage that your builder caused. Your offer to contribute to the repairs is made because you feel sorry for them that they have this expense and that you understand that it is the work on your property that has caused them to become aware of the problem. I would offer to contribute a fixed amount (I would not offer a percentage of the cost)  and the offer should be made in writing, and should make it clear that this is an ex-gratia offer and that you accept no liability for the damage. I think I would also put a reasonable deadline for them to accept the offer in the letter - e.g. two weeks. This will not allow them time to get their own quotes for the repair, but this shouldn't matter as the cost of the repair is not your problem or concern. If you allowed them a reasonable time to get quotes, this might suggest that you would offer more if the quotes came in higher than expected, and then this would look like you were accepting liability.

As has been stated, a flat roof is not that expensive. I've the covering done on a small one (3x5m) for £500 about 10 years ago, and your builder will probably be able to give you an idea of what it should cost to renew that roof these days. I'd be surprised if it was more than £4,000 with new timber/insulation/covering/flashings/gutters. So £500 would be 12.5%. I think this is the most they can hope for. 

If they won't speak to you, you can put a letter through their letterbox (or send it by post). You might want to consider using your Dad as a 'mediatior'. While he can't be unbiased, he might be able to listen to the neighbours and ensure that the conversation remains productive. Your letter can suggest meeting to discuss the issue, and also suggest that they have a family member or friend with them for support. With luck, you will get someone with better English. I don't think I would mention that you find it difficult to understand them. They need to think about how they will deal with this difficulty.

Please don't worry about this. This sort of dispute between neighbours is not uncommon, but it would be as well to avoid it going to court. The Legal Helpline (if you have legal expenses cover) will confirm the legal position, and this will help avoid the issue going to court as all the big problems are faced by your neighbours, not by you. 

funkyfifi

Thank you so so much for these replies, I feel a bit calmer already.... I'm just heading to work now, but I'll answer everything properly when I'm home xxx

funkyfifi

ThisIsWeird said:

So, your extension is not making any physical contact with any part of the neighbour's building, including the garage? And, during the work, your scaffolding also made no contact with this garage roof?

And, smartly, you and the builder took photos and videos of the garage condition, before, during, and after?

 Phew

Do not worry at all at not having a PWA agreement in place - that bird has flown. There are overstated in any case, since folk are already protected from damage caused by works. I mean, if your construction had made their wall collapse, clearly you (your builder) would be liable, PWA or not. Ditto if a scaff pole had gone through their roof - the builder or scaffolder would have been liable, regardless. So don't worry.

So what you have here is a simple case of "are you responsible for any damage being caused to this neighbour's roof?" It would appear that the answer is a clear 'no'.

There endeth the matter.

Do not fret or become upset because someone else is mistaken about this matter. IF the roof was damaged by your building work, then it would/should be easy for them to prove, and you would know it was the case. If it hasn't been caused by your work, they will clearly not be able to demonstrate that it was, so they have no case. 

Do you have any inkling or suspicion whether they genuinely believe you caused damage, or are 'trying it on'?!

And do you have Legal Protection included in your house insurance?

You can add that any 'sogginess' was clearly not caused by your work - that will almost certainly be the result of long-term rot and decay. Any attempt to suggest you are liable for this should be very easy to rebuff.

What to do? Just be frank, honest and clear. Explain that your scaffold wasn't in contact with their garage, and it's clear that nothing was dropped on to it either. Your builder confirms that the roof was saggy/soggy at the start, and any investigation should reveal what the true cause is. If you had caused any damage, then of course you'd have sorted it. But you haven't, so - sorry - you won't.

Entirely up to you whether you wish to make a small gift 'as a thank you for any inconvenience during the building', but that is literally what it should be - a very kind gesture, and only if they 'deserve' it - ie they are nice, decent folk you wish to be on good terms with - and would clearly appreciate it (eg, they are not outwardly wealthy). But I'd suggest that this should only be suggested and entertained if they fully accept, in good grace, that you have not caused any damage. Eg, if you and/or your builder offered to have a look at their garage with them, and could point out, say, rotting joists, and the neighbour accepted with a, "Ah, yes, I see, you are right - it's clearly been like that for a long time, and is unconnected with your work. Soz." Then you could, if you wished, and if you could easily afford it, say summat like, "Look, you've been really understanding during our building, so we'd like to give you something towards it being repaired as a 'thank you'.. ", and I'd be thinking in terms of a few hundred only. But absolutely NO moral or other onus on you to do so. And certainly not if any reluctance by them to accept the facts about their garage - it is not to 'shut them up'.

Thank you so much for such a detailed answer xx so in answer to the first one, no part of my extension touches them no..... I paid extra for the cantilever scaffolding which is now long gone.... But it did involve some access to their roof when it was being erected sadly, which they were OK with. There has been a little bit of the builder on their roof to access stuff (not prolonged in anyway) but they spread the load with planks so it didn't put any pressure on it.
It's escalated a little today when Dad relayed to them that the builder has said he has video evidence that it's no worse than before and they got a bit shouty and now have messaged me and asked to meet me instead. 
We gave them something in writing that we both signed to say if there was any agreed damage, we'd reinstate the roof to the previous condition before we started, so I'm not sure if that complicates anything..... 
I'm so so done with it all honestly. 
If I'm really thinking about it, I think this has possibly been their plan all along and they said to Dad today that it's only 2 years old, which it 10000% isn't, as I remember Mum having to deal with the cowboy builders at the time. 

tacpot12

If the thing you gave them in writing said "any agreed damage" then you are not legally bound to pay for any damage that is found subsequently (unless you agree that the roof is damaged, rather than defective). But as the scaffolder was walking on their roof (with their agreement), it may be harder to defend a view that the scaffolder did not damage the roof. They may also see you not wanting to pay as trying to wriggle out of an agreement they entered into in good faith. 

Make a note now about when your Mum was dealing with the cowboy builders who installed the flat roof, as best you can remember. Include in the note what your Mum said that made her (or you) think that they were cowboys.

Do you have legal expense cover as part of your home insurance?  

ThisIsWeird

Funky, you still haven't answered whether you have LP on your house insurance - do you?

If you do, then call them up for guidance - that won't cost anything. They should be able to tell you how to approach this, and should even become involved to defend you should it escalate.

Get your facts straight and concise first. Eg;

1) Neighb's side extension is understood to be around 8 years old, and was noted to be in poor condition by me and our builder (explain the issues - poor flashings, sogginess, condition of felt, etc.) Photos & videos taken.
2) Agreed with neighb that we'd put right any damage caused - all signed.
3) Paid extra for canti scaff to avoid contact with roof. Builders did briefly stand on roof on occasion, but were careful and used crawl boards (whatever they are called) to protect the roof. 
4) Job was completed on the xth. Roof was checked by my builder (and confirmed by me and my father) to be unchanged from its previous condition - no visible marks or damage caused by our works. Photos taken.
5) Neighbour now claiming roof was replaced only 2 years ago and that we damaged it resulting in its poor condition. Asking for compensation.. etc etc etc.

The facts, succinct, clear.

mi-key

A properly fitted flat roof will last for years. The only reason for sponginess is the felt leaking, which either means it has been damaged or aged over time, or it wasn't fitted properly in the first place. It doesn't happen overnight, and for it to have been caused that quickly by your builder then you would see lots of evidence of ripped or missing felt.

Neither of these are your problem, nor have they been caused by your builder.

( I'm sure if it was fitted only two years ago they will have proof of this, the guarantee from the builder, proof of payment to him etc... ) 

I would tell them you have caused no damage, and the onus is on them to prove that you have. You can both get builders in to check it all and if they can prove the damage happened during the course of the building works, then they may have case. If not then tell them you aren't prepared to pay for a new roof for them, and they are welcome to take you to court if they think they will get anywhere.

They are trying it on, and people who know they are in the wrong normally result to shouting and screaming as they think it will intimidate you into giving in to what they want. 

funkyfifi

ThisIsWeird said:

Funky, you still haven't answered whether you have LP on your house insurance - do you?

If you do, then call them up for guidance - that won't cost anything. They should be able to tell you how to approach this, and should even become involved to defend you should it escalate.

Get your facts straight and concise first. Eg;

1) Neighb's side extension is understood to be around 8 years old, and was noted to be in poor condition by me and our builder (explain the issues - poor flashings, sogginess, condition of felt, etc.) Photos & videos taken.
2) Agreed with neighb that we'd put right any damage caused - all signed.
3) Paid extra for canti scaff to avoid contact with roof. Builders did briefly stand on roof on occasion, but we're careful and used walk boards (whatever they are called) to protect the roof. 
4) Job was completed on the xth. Roof was checked by my builder (and confirmed by me and my father) to be unchanged from its previous condition - no visible marks or damage caused by our works. Photos taken.
5) Neighbour now claiming roof was replaced only 2 years ago and that we damaged it resulting in its poor condition. Asking for compensation.. etc etc etc.

The facts, succinct, clear.

So I had to check my insurance, as everything was done in a big emotional hurry when we moved onto. Mum's house, and no...... I don't have legal cover.....